Burnout, Mental Health and Becoming Self-Employed
Episode 59
Fiona Thomas is a freelance writer, author and self-proclaimed introvert who experienced debilitating burnout. After receiving a diagnosis of depression in her mid-twenties, Fiona quit her job in hospitality leaving behind a career she had built for over a decade.
In this episode Fiona candidly shares her experience of depression and anxiety, describing the moment it came to a head and how she was able to seek help and support. Fiona tells us how writing her first book; Depression In A Digital Age: The Highs and Lows of Perfectionism, was a cathartic experience – revealing how she overcame pressure to keep up appearances when confronting her mental health.
The conversation covers the highs and lows of being a freelancer and Fiona shares how she deals with social isolation and loneliness as a self-employed introvert. And finally, Fiona tells us how she is managing her mental health during Covid-19, and the strategies she is using during lockdown to keep well.
We would like to remind you that this episode contains frank discussions about mental health and depression so please listen with caution.
This conversation was recorded on 22nd September 2020. We hope you enjoy listening.
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Episode Chapters
03:32 Seeking validation and identity in our work
11:17 Experiencing burnout
18:34 A diagnosis of depression
22:01 Fiona’s journey to self-acceptance
28:14 Becoming a freelancer
32:22 Lockdown, loneliness and tackling social isolation
34:38 Investing in your health
35:41 Finding support online
37:36 ‘Girl Boss’?
42:08 Final words of wisdom
Episode Resources
Out of Office: How to ditch the 9-5, be your own boss and become self-employed with a freelance business - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Office-Ditch-Your-Boss/dp/1789561248/
Depression in a Digital Age: The Highs and Lows of Perfectionism - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Depression-Digital-Age-Perfectionism-Inspirational
Connect with Fiona Thomas
Connect with Frankie Cotton
Team
Guest - Fiona Thomas
Host - Frankie Cotton
Production Support - Georgia Buchanan
Sound Editor - Beth Davison
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EPISODE 59 TRANSCRIPT
Frankie Cotton Fiona, welcome to Women on Top!
Fiona Thomas Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be here.
Frankie Cotton Oh! Thank you for joining. If it's okay with you, I would actually really like to start with a quote from your recent book, which isn't out yet, but will be out by the time that this podcast is public; Out of Office – and this is the quote, "I need work to validate me. There you go. I've said it. I need exciting emails, challenging projects, scary meetings and big dreams. These are the things that make me feel like I'm doing something. And let me be frank, I don't think that this is a good thing." Now, when I was reading your book, which, by the way, is just a brilliant handbook of how to be a freelancer and sort of navigate the practicalities of being self-employed, I think it's brilliant. But this line really, really stood out to me. And I think that a lot of people seek validation in their work and that this will really resonate with them. And my question for you is, how did you come to see that in yourself so clearly?
Fiona Thomas It was when I lost well, when I had a mental breakdown in my mid-20s, I was twenty-six and I was working in hospitality. So I was on a busy tourist attraction and I was on the catering team. So I was like quite high up in the management team. And I didn't like my job, but I worked really, really hard and I was an overachiever and really got myself stressed out about it. And I worked in that industry for almost a decade before I had my mental breakdown. And then I was off work recovering, living with depression and anxiety for about a year. And it was during that year that my anxiety got really, really bad. And it was because I was scared to meet up with people that I didn't know because I was worried that they would ask me, what is it that you do? And I wouldn't have anything to say. And that was when I realised that without a job title, when that had been stripped away, I didn't who I was, and I was like really, really confused and really just felt like I wasn't at all a good person or a valid person because I didn't have something kind of valuable work related attached to my name, and that was a real light bulb moment for me when I realised, God I was doing this job that I hated, but it was such a part of my identity that even when that was stripped away, I didn't know who I was. So, yeah, that was definitely when the penny dropped for me.
Frankie Cotton And it's so interesting because I think, you know, there will be people who can relate to the specifics of your story, which we'll get into a bit later. But there are lots of reasons why people find themselves out of work, particularly, you know, now having been through Covid and, you know, furlough, for example, even that was for some people just temporarily not having a role per se. And, you know, whether it's motherhood or even starting a business or going freelance, that transition and losing that job title or that way that you identify yourself is a really tricky sort of self-realisation or sort of self-development exercise, you know, separating yourself from that and trying to find something else or something perhaps deeper within yourself that doesn't necessarily just link to your job title. And I wonder in your case, where do you think that need for validation in our work, in your work came from? And what about sort of wider how do you think that, you know, for all of us, why do you think we seek that validation and where does that come from? Is it external or is it innate?
Fiona Thomas I think for me, it's never been external because my family life has always been very much you work hard, you get good grades in exams if you can, but if you don't we know that you've tried your best, there was never any judgement. I never, ever got told off for getting a bad grade or for maybe getting a bad line on my report card. Everything was always like as long as you try your best then we are OK with that. But I think I probably took that to the extremes of like, well, I should always try my best to absolutely everything. Like they say, you're either motivated by reward or punishment. And I think I'm always motivated by reward. And for that it's that kind of praise. So it's not an external pressure, but I seek the external validation when probably I should be looking internally. And I think it all comes probably from just general low self-esteem and craving other people to say, oh, that was a really good thing you did. Or um, or you've got this job. You must be you must be really hard for that. You must be really good. So I think for me it definitely comes from low self-esteem and wanting people to say you're a good person because you've worked really hard.
Frankie Cotton Mhm. Yeah. And I wonder, and I'm sure that there isn't a simple answer for this, um but obviously you recognise in your statement, you know, you say and let me be frank, I don't think this is a good thing. So I wonder how you try to counter that desire. And I ask you that question knowing that it's probably, you know, a lifetime's work to try to find that balance and that sort of healthier relationship with work.
Fiona Thomas Hm, I think. It's something that I've worked through more so in the last year or so, I would say, since being self-employed for a few years, like I've gone through the first years where you have to take any work that's going and now I'm a more established. I feel like I can definitely work on that and utilise the fact that I am freelance so I can schedule work that I actually want to do. So previously, I would work with any client that I could get my hands on.
Frankie Cotton Yep, I know that feeling.
Fiona Thomas Yeah, and I think that's an important part to go through to kind of see what that's like, and see what you who you want to work with, who you don't and now I'm starting to see, you know, it's not it's not a validating experience to work with people who don't respect your boundaries or don't respect your value, don't want to pay full price, all that kind of thing. So I'm trying to make the most of the fact that I can almost orchestrate my own work life and trying to make it so that I don't seek out those people that are going to make me feel awful and seek out the people who are not going to validate me but are on the same wavelength as me. So actively talk about mental health as part of my business because I want to attract people who have gone through the same experience as me. And maybe we both have an understanding that we will work together. If somebody is not feeling that great on that day, then we don't do the work. Um, so yeah, I think. For me, it's maybe switched to more to a bit of an emotional validation that I'm looking for and I'm looking for people who just understand me a bit deeper than I did maybe 10 years ago.
Frankie Cotton That's really interesting. And it feels like a much more. I don't know if peaceful is the right word, but it came to mind for me like a healthier, more peaceful way of sort of managing that relationship and kind of understanding what it is that you're looking for. Um, yeah, there's a real self-awareness in that which I love.
Fiona Thomas Yeah. And I'm not, I'm not fully there yet. I've still do a lot of, a lot of work on that.
Frankie Cotton Yeah I know. I know what you mean. We can sit here on podcasts sometimes and say wise words, but it doesn't mean that we always follow our own advice that we stick to it 100 percent. So Fiona, I'd like to jump back to the moment that you were sort of describing a bit earlier, which you also talk about and describe brilliantly in your first book, Depression in a Digital Age. And that was that moment for you at age 26 when you were experiencing burnout and you were in a toilet cubicle at work and you suddenly had this realisation that something had to change and that things just couldn't go on the way that they were. And I wonder if you can describe that moment a bit for us now.
Fiona Thomas Well, I'd been crying in toilet cubicles at that point for many years at work, especially because I just didn't feel strong enough to take on the kind of weight of being a manager and that, in hospitality, anyone who has not worked in hospitality, really the only way to kind of increase your salary is to climb up the ladder. So to stay on a lower level, you generally be on minimum wage or a living wage kind of range. So I felt kind of pushed into a corner that I kind of had to move up the ladder. So I'd been in management for a while. And I just, it just wasn't suited to my personality type – I didn't know it back then, I didn't know that I was an introvert, I didn't know that I had low-level anxiety. I didn't know that I was about to be diagnosed with depression. So I just kind of forced myself to act confident and act like a boss when actually it was just slowly pulling away at my emotional state. So, yeah, I would cry kind of toilets quite a lot just because and workplaces, especially in management, um, it's not encouraged to cry in front of your team to cry on the on the floor in front of the customers. So I would hide in the toilets quite a lot. Um, and honestly, I just I don't know what it was that day, I just thought, this has to be, not that this has to be the last time I do this, because I kind of just thought, oh, I'll always be like this, I'll always be emotional but that point I just thought I can't actually do this job right now. In my mind, I just thought I needed two weeks sick leave. I really just thought, I'm just tired. I'm just overworked. I'm just stressed. I didn't have a language for anything else. So I just thought I'm stressed, this is what stress feels like. Um, and I thought I just need two weeks to ignore work, to catch up on sleep, to wash my hair, to clean my house, to do all those like life admin things that pile up. Um, when you're really busy I thought I just need two weeks to switch off and then I'll come back and I'll be absolutely fine. And I never went back. Um, so I just for whatever reason had that moment where I decided I needed to stop for a moment. And when I stopped that was when I asked, that's when I went to a doctor because I wanted a sick line, not because I wanted medication or help. I just thought I want a sick line. And I told her my symptoms. That was when the floodgates basically opened.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And I was going to ask you describe in your book this feeling imposter syndrome when you went to the doctors and sort of, I guess as perhaps a little bit of time had passed, you sort of almost look back at that moment in the bathroom and thought, well, I was just being overdramatic and sort of, you know, it is not that bad. And I just wonder where you think that sort of I don't know if it's underestimating or perhaps just not quite realising how much suffering you were going through in that moment. And, you know, do you think that's a common experience for people in those situations?
Fiona Thomas Yeah, I think it's very common. Um, and I still have this conversation with people all the time where they say, you know, or my friends or maybe text me late at night and say, oh, I can't cope, it's too much. And then the next day they're like, oh, I'm fine, I'm fine. It's like but at that moment you were feeling that, um. So it is really difficult. And I think a lot of it is down to the way that we are presented with mental illness as children, as we're grown up, even as adults. How it's presented in the media is very much, um, you know, quote-unquote, normal people act this way and people with mental illness are the other end of the spectrum and they're completely out of control and they have to be hospitalised and they're crying all the time. And I think a lot of us have gotten in our heads that to be mentally ill is really visible, and it's really crystal clear that they cannot cope with life. Um, but a lot of us are suffering with mental illness and we're functioning we're managing to function day to day. And we think that if we can get out of bed in the morning and we can go to work or we can put the kids to school or we can go out at the weekend, or we can't be mentally ill because we're doing all these things that quote-unquote normal people can do. Um, and there's such a, it's on such a spectrum and there's such an overlap between being mentally ill and presenting yourself as absolutely fine – and I think that that was the issue for me was that I could pretend to be fine.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And that was another point that really resonated with me in the book, is when you talk about keeping up appearances and you say that there is a real difference between, you know, what, we, um, I mean, it's sort of a buzzword now, self care. And I think that the real depth of understanding of what that means is perhaps lost in sort of marketing. But, you know, the difference between self care and keeping up appearances and that, you know, you were able to function and do certain things and get your hair down or whatever, purely because it was part of this role in a way of appearing like everything was OK, rather than coming from a from a position of self care.
Fiona Thomas And also what I've learnt recently is the self care and, um, like unhealthy coping mechanisms also overlap greatly. Um, for me, when I was off work with exercise, I was like, this will be great, this will help me get better. And so I did a lot of exercise, but then I started to restrict my food and then it got to a point where I was exercising seven days a week for like two or three hours a day. And I wasn't eating certain food groups and I was cancelling plans with friends because I want to go to the gym instead. So there's a spectrum where, you know, self care can turn into self sabotage or, you know, self harm in some cases. Um, and for me, that getting up and pretended to be OK was definitely my, like, workaholic tendencies. So although sometimes it is good to just get dressed and go on with your day and something. Just getting started can help. For me, that was a defence mechanism of no, I'll just keep going to work and pretend like everything's fine.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, and I'm sure a lot of people possibly listening to this podcast can relate to exactly that. Um, Fiona, I wonder what it was like for you, you know, when you went to the doctors and it wasn't just you needed two weeks off. It wasn't just short term stress. It was a larger problem. And again, you speak in the book about being stamped by a single word; 'depression'. I wonder how you responded to that. Were you resistant? Did you embrace it? Did you have to come to terms with it? What was that like for you?
Fiona Thomas I definitely, I didn't embrace it. I was on one hand very relieved that there was a name for how I was feeling, because up until that point, I just thought I was really bad at being an adult.
Frankie Cotton That's heartbreaking!
Fiona Thomas But there were people that I had I thought that I had expressed the fact that I wasn't coping, and adults, namely white, middle-aged male adults, had said 'this is what work is like'. And this you know, chin up, especially because I was young, a lot of people had said, you know, in the beginning, you really have to put you have to put that hard work in. But that point, I'd been working in this industry for a decade or more. So I kind of thought, I feel like I've kind of already put the work in. But yeah, I felt like I kind of expressed that I wasn't coping, but maybe I probably hadn't done that as loudly as I thought I had. A lot of people had just said, you know, this is what works like, we all hate our job, those kind of comments. Um, so, like I say, I just thought I was rubbish at holding my life together because I didn't do things like, I didn't have time to cut the grass, I didn't have time to clean my house. I didn't have time to have hobbies and stuff like that. So I just thought I was rubbish at being an adult. So having a diagnosis was on one hand, very, very helpful for me because internally I felt like, OK, it's not me like I haven't done anything wrong. It's just that life has got too much and it has got to a point now where doctors acknowledge it and it probably was that validation thing, again, of, these feelings are validated by medical experts and they see that I'm not making it up so that's such a relief. And yet I think labels can be really, really helpful for people because it helps you kind of separate yourself from the illness and just gives you that sense of, OK, I'm not just making this up in my head there is something there. But it wasn't, I didn't embrace it in the sense of that I wanted to tell people because I definitely didn't want to tell people that I had depression and I only told my parents and my very close friends and family and didn't really want anyone else to know which is obviously quite funny, considering that I've now made a career out of being a mental health writer, so yeah it's is pretty funny.
Frankie Cotton Well, I was going to ask, actually, as you said, that, how did that transition to, you know, really 180 and actually writing the book about your experience?
Fiona Thomas Yeah. So there was six years between me being diagnosed and the book coming out.
Frankie Cotton Gosh, yeah. That's quite a long time.
Fiona Thomas And really it just happened because like you said, during that period of being off work and kind of losing my identity and not really knowing what I would do without work was when I started a blog, um, but I didn't write about my mental health. I wrote about health and fitness and healthy eating, which was my current obsession was just kind of told you about, um. But I got bored of writing of that stuff and I wrote a few more honest blog posts around 2015, I started writing about the fact that I had given up alcohol for a year and what it was like to be in a social circle when you don't drink and the pressure that other people put on you to drink. And I wrote a lot about body image because I got married in 2015 and on my wedding day, I remember looking around and just feeling like a sense of I really shouldn't be putting my body through this anymore because I've got so many people around me that love me and care about me. Why I must be in the 90 percent of my time counting calories and working out at the gym because all these people would have come here no matter what I looked like. So I wrote a lot of pieces about that, about mental health-related topics and I just felt such a sense of fulfilment to write them, even though not that many people were reading them at the time, I just felt such a great, great sense of this is meaningful words. This is just... these are, these are meaningful words that mean something, and I want them to be in print and I want them to exist because it's not fluffy. It's what real people are going through and I just really wanted to kind of put it out there. So it was a slow process. And I didn't tell friends and family really about my blog, it existed on the Internet and I didn't really tell anyone about it until probably a year or so after I'd written most of the blog posts. So it was a very gradual process. And I talk a lot in the book about how the Internet was my kind of training ground for talking openly about mental illness. So on Instagram and on the blog that was the place where I'll organise my thoughts and I said, you know, I wasn't ready to say out loud, 'I had a mental breakdown', but I could, I could type out and I could read it back. And that just kind of eased me into that sense of now I can, now that people know and it's out there and the world hasn't crumbled. I can say it aloud and everything will still be OK.
Frankie Cotton And have you noticed much change or evolution in the way that we speak about mental health during that time, so from when you were first diagnosed with depression and anxiety to now, have you seen a big step change? And actually, if you have, is it all positive or, you know, what do you think is potentially lacking?
Fiona Thomas Yeah, back then there wasn't really well, there were people blogging about mental illness and mental health, but they weren't really in my sphere. I was definitely following beauty bloggers and lifestyle bloggers. So I felt like nobody was really talking about it, whereas now, it feels like every YouTuber or every blogger has got that one, at least one blog post that says, guys, I've got something to tell you. And it's that they've got anxiety or depression or some sort of mental illness, which is great. I'm so glad that the majority of people in my bubble feel kind of confident enough to open up about it now. But I'm aware that I'm in this bubble of people who are happy to talk about it. I know that when I step out of that into other circles that it's not as easy to talk about.
Frankie Cotton So I think there's still a lot of work to be done and Fiona, how, I'm interested to know how your workplace responded to what happened to you. Were they supportive? Did you get the help and support that you needed from them or was there a misunderstanding from them about, you know, what you're experiencing and the fact that you needed time off? What was that like?
Fiona Thomas They were really, really good, actually.
Frankie Cotton OK, that's good.
Fiona Thomas Yeah, they were a big company and they had an H.R. department, and that's the only company I've ever worked out that actually had an H.R. department because I've always worked with smaller businesses. So that was great. Thankfully, thank goodness I was in a role that I got paid sick leave, which again was the only place I've ever had that. I got access to a counsellor for a short period of time, and then I moved to an NHS counsellor, but their approach was really just take as long as you need. There wasn't much contact with them. So there was no pressure to come back or anything like that, and then they invited me to do a phased return after I think it was about three months. I tried one or two days and was crying at work again. And thankfully, the H.R. rep was like, oh, you definitely shouldn't be crying at work, so please go home, which was good. And after trying to go back, I think that was when I just realised, you know, I'm not, I'm not ever going to be able to go back to this job and it's not necessarily the employers fault. It's just work culture in general to me, just wasn't, set up, corporate culture wasn't set up for me. And that as well, combined with the fact that the job was customer-facing as well. I just knew that the customer-facing and work as well was really, really putting a lot of pressure on me to show up and pretend to be happy within a set amount of hours every day, um, and to deal with a lot of problem solving, a lot of fighting fires, which I just knew I wasn't going to be able to go back to. So I left through choice after a bit more thinking over time.
Frankie Cotton And it's it's interesting what you say about your experience. And I'm sure that while the numbers show that there are a lot of people in your position, so improving mental health was a motivator for 29 percent of freelancers who were taking the leap. And that was a survey that was done last year. So 29 percent is a huge amount, you know, using that that being the reason why they've decided to go freelance. However, you will know this more than anyone, probably that being and going freelance can also in itself be a struggle, a different one. You know, perhaps, you know, it's not a toxic work culture that's putting itself on you and you are having to survive in that world. But there are other challenges with, you know, creating your own income and varying levels of income, for example, and all of the other challenges that come with being freelance. And I wonder, how have you learnt to manage that now and and learn how to thrive in that environment?
Fiona Thomas Yeah, you're right. That's, I say to people I went freelance to manage my mental health, but there's a whole new set of mental health issues that come with being freelance. Absolutely. And I think it's just down to the individual which type of stress they prefer? A stress that's boxed into, you know, a nine to five or do they prefer one that comes and goes but you've got the control to kind of manipulate and change um, and to me the positives outweigh the negatives for being freelance. And one of the things that I really didn't think would affect me when I started working from home was the loneliness because I'm an introvert, like I said, I hated working in customer service. I like working in teams, but also much prefer just being responsible for my own work. I didn't like being a manager, didn't like having to kind of rally people up and get them to work to a certain standard. So I was, I couldn't wait. I was like, this is great. I'm going to work from home. I won't see anyone all day. I'm going to just live my best life. And I do love that but what I didn't realise was the isolation. Whether you like it or not, has a physiological effect on you, and it does make you tired and it does make you sad, and I mean, it can even there's studies that say people who are lonely will die sooner than those who aren't lonely. So we are social beings. We need social time. And that's one of the best things I've had to really actively force myself to do. Because my gut instinct is, no, I'm happy being alone. I don't have that urge to be out and about with people, but I know that I need to do it. So I made a conscious decision to make other freelance friends in my area and go out for coffee and go out for lunch. And the good thing is I have more energy now to do things in the evenings and weekends, which when I was working in a management job, I don't really want to do anything on the weekends. And so, like I say, I was an introvert, I feel like I fill my cup up during the day because I'm doing creative stuff and I'm on my own. And then in the evenings and weekends I'm ready to socialise again. So I definitely have to force myself to do that. And I do a lot of voice notes, a lot of ranty voice notes to other freelancers that I know because you don't get those, that stuff that you have at work where you know, you give someone the eye and say, I'll meet you in the break room, I've got something to tell you. Or, you know, you both witnessed something and you can't wait to talk it over with the other person that was in the room – those kind of watercooler moments you don't get as a freelancer and they're so important. So I feel like you have to really work hard to create them for yourself.
Frankie Cotton And I'm curious as to how you've managed that during lockdown and, you know, we're talking here on the day that Boris Johnson is going to give another sort of public announcement this evening. So we have a sense, I think, that potentially mini lockdowns or, you know, regional lockdown or things could well be on the cards again this year. And I wonder, what was that like? You know, knowing what you know about loneliness and how to try to keep yourself in the best sort of spirits, I don't know if spirits is the right way. But to help manage, manage your mental health. And I know a lot of people who probably are listening to this podcast would have experienced some real challenging moments during lockdown if they've never been at home or isolated or working from home. Do you have any ways of, any strategies of kind of alleviating that loneliness or keeping well during lockdown? Did you find anything useful?
Fiona Thomas I think lockdown is like the hardest time to try and socialise as a freelancer and I definitely didn't do it enough. And I found that when I did socialise with people, I found it really, really hard on Zoom and group chats and stuff like that. I found it really hard because I feel like when you, at the moment when you step into a social situation, even if it's just online, you really have to be ready to carry the emotional weight of what other people put on you. And everyone has got so much going on right now, like everyone is struggling. So to me, I probably pulled back a bit on the social interaction stuff. And I felt really apprehensive about texting friends who I normally would text to say how's it going? Because I really had put up my barriers because I wasn't ready to take on someone else's problems because I had so many of my own. And I think a lot of people have felt like that.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. Yeah.
Fiona Thomas And I think if lockdown has taught me anything, it's that we do actually need to look internally sometimes when it comes to supporting yourself emotionally. So I invested in coaching and therapy because I knew that I could tell them the way I was talking to my friends, that they were really didn't have the capacity to listen to the stuff that I needed to get off my chest. So that's maybe not helpful advice, but that was my experience, is that I found it really, really hard. Um, so maybe I guess maybe lower your expectations as to how much emotional support you can get from your friends and family – still reach out, and still ask. I've got a few friends that I know that they are doing fine but as soon as they are not fine, I need to know that I can look after myself, um, and that I can do my own kind of self care stuff. Um, but definitely like I've probably leaned more into the business communities and the freelance communities as opposed to friends. So I've joined a lot of online events and stuff like that. There's some really good online communities; The Cool Working Club is a great one, Independent Ghetto's Collectives is another one which is really good because they get what it's like to be self-employed.
Frankie Cotton Which is a unique challenge.
Fiona Thomas Yeah. So if I've got, uh, if I've got a work related kind of thing that I want to chat through, I feel like it's better to go to people who understand, understand that situation and just trying to do Zoom calls if I feel like it, but I don't know about you, but I think Zoom calls are sometimes just as exhausting as not seeing people?
Frankie Cotton I know, I've definitely felt like that. I think I don't know what week it was, but I thought I can't go on another Zoom and make small talk with, as you said, you know, all your friends and everyone's struggling. So you're not really supporting each other necessarily because you don't have the capacity and nobody's doing anything so there's nothing to talk about. So, yeah, I found, I'm with you. I found them particularly tough.
Fiona Thomas The big thing for me was that we managed to, so we live in North Birmingham, but our families obviously live in Scotland, that's where my accent is from so when lockdown lifted we managed to go home and we were going to stay for two weeks and we ended up staying for three and that was the biggest, the biggest thing for me was leaning into family, like literally being able to see them and talk to them was the best. So I guess when this comes out, you may not be able to do that, but definitely plan for that if you can.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, I know we'll listen back to this and think we were so naive or unaware as to what was going on the corner. Well, hopefully, you know, things won't get so bad again. Fiona, there's something else I really, really want to pick up on from your book, from your first book, Depression in the Digital Age. And this is, you mention a lot about wearing a Girl Boss hat and that that was a role for you and it was a costume that you could sort of put on every day and it was a way for you to manage the stresses that were happening and potentially deny a little bit about the reality of what you're going through. And I wonder, now, what do you think of the title, Girl Boss and your, based on your internalisation of it, do you think it's a damaging term or an empowering term or what relationship do you have with that?
Fiona Thomas I think like you say yeah, when I was working in management and when I was kind of side hustling, I definitely identified with that term because it gave me, I think for me, it just gave me, it gave me a little place in the world which at that point, up until that point, I didn't feel like I really had one. And I think when you, now that I'm fully freelance, you forget how hard it is to side hustle. And as a side hustler, I think that that gave me a little place in the world where I was like, 'yeah I still work like this waitressing job that I don't enjoy. But I deserve better. And I'm going to I'm going to work to get myself into a place that feels better.' So for me, then Girl Boss probably did feel good because it felt like it felt like a big F you to traditional employment and it was great. But then when I went freelance, I definitely don't, I don't feel aligned with that term just because I don't, I don't aspire to be a boss or in a position of authority, I just aspire to create a life that's creative and flexible and accommodates my mental health, but I don't really judge anyone who uses it. I know that it has caused a bit of issue because as bosses, we should be bosses of any gender and obviously using the word girl, as opposed to women is a bit problematic, um, but yeah, if it works for you, then I'd say good for you.
Frankie Cotton Mhm. Yeah, I agree with you and I think that, um, if a movement has inspired potentially thousands of young women to, um, to understand their position and work in a different way and to actually feel more empowered, then, you know. Yes. OK, we should use women and not go and it should be, you know, not a gender term. It's kind of like, well, you know, progress isn't perfect. You can't just come up with the perfect solution and jump from, you know, A to Z. There's a whole series of steps through that process.
Fiona Thomas Yeah, and the Girl Boss movement probably inspired a lot of people who are the people now saying, yeah, oh, we you know, we shouldn't be using that term?
Frankie Cotton Definitely. Definitely. And I think, you know, as feminists, that happens a lot. You know, progress moves quickly and then you look back at things and think, well, I don't associate with that anymore. I've evolved. My thinking has evolved from there. So one can judge it retrospectively. And I think we have to be careful not to do that. But, yeah, that's interesting how that was for you at that time. So, Fiona, I've got to say thank you so much for everything that you've shared with us and you've shared really generously and openly. And I think it's just brilliant. And, you know, your new book, Out of Office is just such a great practical guide for anyone who's going freelance or even if you already are. You know, I think it's the tips and you know, this all the stuff about tax is one of those topics that people always, um, or not always, but sometimes have a fear about. So I think it's great that you've captured all of those things, but I'd love to give you the opportunity now really, is there anything that we've not talked about that you'd like to share with the listeners or anything you'd like to pass on?
Fiona Thomas Um, something I was really keen to get across in Out of Office is that freelancing is not perfect. It's not for everyone. So in the first section of the book, I give a kind of like lay of the land and what freelancing is like just now. And also just give an honest account of the good parts and the bad parts. And it's also not as hard as you might think. It's difficult, but I always say to people, if I can do it, then anyone can do it because I did a degree in music and then I went and worked in hospitality for almost a decade. Then I had a mental breakdown and then I went to be a waitress and I started blogging. And now know I've written two books. It's just you just don't know where your career, your career trajectory is going. So please don't write yourself off and think that you're not good enough to be freelance or that you don't have the mental strength to do it, because I never thought that this is what we'd be doing but if you want a flexible workplace and you want to have joy at work as opposed to trading, you know, nine o'clock on a Monday then freelance and offer so much flexibility, um, and I think stability, because you can really build a business that's got multiple income streams and can kind of react to things like a global pandemic. And it will see you through. It can see you through for a lifetime.
Frankie Cotton Wow. Thank you so much. And it's been so great to talk to you.
Fiona Thomas And you! Thank you so much for having me.
Frankie Cotton Oh, thanks, Fiona.
Frankie Cotton Fiona, welcome to Women on Top!
Fiona Thomas Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be here.
Frankie Cotton Oh! Thank you for joining. If it's okay with you, I would actually really like to start with a quote from your recent book, which isn't out yet, but will be out by the time that this podcast is public; Out of Office – and this is the quote, "I need work to validate me. There you go. I've said it. I need exciting emails, challenging projects, scary meetings and big dreams. These are the things that make me feel like I'm doing something. And let me be frank, I don't think that this is a good thing." Now, when I was reading your book, which, by the way, is just a brilliant handbook of how to be a freelancer and sort of navigate the practicalities of being self-employed, I think it's brilliant. But this line really, really stood out to me. And I think that a lot of people seek validation in their work and that this will really resonate with them. And my question for you is, how did you come to see that in yourself so clearly?
Fiona Thomas It was when I lost well, when I had a mental breakdown in my mid-20s, I was twenty-six and I was working in hospitality. So I was on a busy tourist attraction and I was on the catering team. So I was like quite high up in the management team. And I didn't like my job, but I worked really, really hard and I was an overachiever and really got myself stressed out about it. And I worked in that industry for almost a decade before I had my mental breakdown. And then I was off work recovering, living with depression and anxiety for about a year. And it was during that year that my anxiety got really, really bad. And it was because I was scared to meet up with people that I didn't know because I was worried that they would ask me, what is it that you do? And I wouldn't have anything to say. And that was when I realised that without a job title, when that had been stripped away, I didn't who I was, and I was like really, really confused and really just felt like I wasn't at all a good person or a valid person because I didn't have something kind of valuable work related attached to my name, and that was a real light bulb moment for me when I realised, God I was doing this job that I hated, but it was such a part of my identity that even when that was stripped away, I didn't know who I was. So, yeah, that was definitely when the penny dropped for me.
Frankie Cotton And it's so interesting because I think, you know, there will be people who can relate to the specifics of your story, which we'll get into a bit later. But there are lots of reasons why people find themselves out of work, particularly, you know, now having been through Covid and, you know, furlough, for example, even that was for some people just temporarily not having a role per se. And, you know, whether it's motherhood or even starting a business or going freelance, that transition and losing that job title or that way that you identify yourself is a really tricky sort of self-realisation or sort of self-development exercise, you know, separating yourself from that and trying to find something else or something perhaps deeper within yourself that doesn't necessarily just link to your job title. And I wonder in your case, where do you think that need for validation in our work, in your work came from? And what about sort of wider how do you think that, you know, for all of us, why do you think we seek that validation and where does that come from? Is it external or is it innate?
Fiona Thomas I think for me, it's never been external because my family life has always been very much you work hard, you get good grades in exams if you can, but if you don't we know that you've tried your best, there was never any judgement. I never, ever got told off for getting a bad grade or for maybe getting a bad line on my report card. Everything was always like as long as you try your best then we are OK with that. But I think I probably took that to the extremes of like, well, I should always try my best to absolutely everything. Like they say, you're either motivated by reward or punishment. And I think I'm always motivated by reward. And for that it's that kind of praise. So it's not an external pressure, but I seek the external validation when probably I should be looking internally. And I think it all comes probably from just general low self-esteem and craving other people to say, oh, that was a really good thing you did. Or um, or you've got this job. You must be you must be really hard for that. You must be really good. So I think for me it definitely comes from low self-esteem and wanting people to say you're a good person because you've worked really hard.
Frankie Cotton Mhm. Yeah. And I wonder, and I'm sure that there isn't a simple answer for this, um but obviously you recognise in your statement, you know, you say and let me be frank, I don't think this is a good thing. So I wonder how you try to counter that desire. And I ask you that question knowing that it's probably, you know, a lifetime's work to try to find that balance and that sort of healthier relationship with work.
Fiona Thomas Hm, I think. It's something that I've worked through more so in the last year or so, I would say, since being self-employed for a few years, like I've gone through the first years where you have to take any work that's going and now I'm a more established. I feel like I can definitely work on that and utilise the fact that I am freelance so I can schedule work that I actually want to do. So previously, I would work with any client that I could get my hands on.
Frankie Cotton Yep, I know that feeling.
Fiona Thomas Yeah, and I think that's an important part to go through to kind of see what that's like, and see what you who you want to work with, who you don't and now I'm starting to see, you know, it's not it's not a validating experience to work with people who don't respect your boundaries or don't respect your value, don't want to pay full price, all that kind of thing. So I'm trying to make the most of the fact that I can almost orchestrate my own work life and trying to make it so that I don't seek out those people that are going to make me feel awful and seek out the people who are not going to validate me but are on the same wavelength as me. So actively talk about mental health as part of my business because I want to attract people who have gone through the same experience as me. And maybe we both have an understanding that we will work together. If somebody is not feeling that great on that day, then we don't do the work. Um, so yeah, I think. For me, it's maybe switched to more to a bit of an emotional validation that I'm looking for and I'm looking for people who just understand me a bit deeper than I did maybe 10 years ago.
Frankie Cotton That's really interesting. And it feels like a much more. I don't know if peaceful is the right word, but it came to mind for me like a healthier, more peaceful way of sort of managing that relationship and kind of understanding what it is that you're looking for. Um, yeah, there's a real self-awareness in that which I love.
Fiona Thomas Yeah. And I'm not, I'm not fully there yet. I've still do a lot of, a lot of work on that.
Frankie Cotton Yeah I know. I know what you mean. We can sit here on podcasts sometimes and say wise words, but it doesn't mean that we always follow our own advice that we stick to it 100 percent. So Fiona, I'd like to jump back to the moment that you were sort of describing a bit earlier, which you also talk about and describe brilliantly in your first book, Depression in a Digital Age. And that was that moment for you at age 26 when you were experiencing burnout and you were in a toilet cubicle at work and you suddenly had this realisation that something had to change and that things just couldn't go on the way that they were. And I wonder if you can describe that moment a bit for us now.
Fiona Thomas Well, I'd been crying in toilet cubicles at that point for many years at work, especially because I just didn't feel strong enough to take on the kind of weight of being a manager and that, in hospitality, anyone who has not worked in hospitality, really the only way to kind of increase your salary is to climb up the ladder. So to stay on a lower level, you generally be on minimum wage or a living wage kind of range. So I felt kind of pushed into a corner that I kind of had to move up the ladder. So I'd been in management for a while. And I just, it just wasn't suited to my personality type – I didn't know it back then, I didn't know that I was an introvert, I didn't know that I had low-level anxiety. I didn't know that I was about to be diagnosed with depression. So I just kind of forced myself to act confident and act like a boss when actually it was just slowly pulling away at my emotional state. So, yeah, I would cry kind of toilets quite a lot just because and workplaces, especially in management, um, it's not encouraged to cry in front of your team to cry on the on the floor in front of the customers. So I would hide in the toilets quite a lot. Um, and honestly, I just I don't know what it was that day, I just thought, this has to be, not that this has to be the last time I do this, because I kind of just thought, oh, I'll always be like this, I'll always be emotional but that point I just thought I can't actually do this job right now. In my mind, I just thought I needed two weeks sick leave. I really just thought, I'm just tired. I'm just overworked. I'm just stressed. I didn't have a language for anything else. So I just thought I'm stressed, this is what stress feels like. Um, and I thought I just need two weeks to ignore work, to catch up on sleep, to wash my hair, to clean my house, to do all those like life admin things that pile up. Um, when you're really busy I thought I just need two weeks to switch off and then I'll come back and I'll be absolutely fine. And I never went back. Um, so I just for whatever reason had that moment where I decided I needed to stop for a moment. And when I stopped that was when I asked, that's when I went to a doctor because I wanted a sick line, not because I wanted medication or help. I just thought I want a sick line. And I told her my symptoms. That was when the floodgates basically opened.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And I was going to ask you describe in your book this feeling imposter syndrome when you went to the doctors and sort of, I guess as perhaps a little bit of time had passed, you sort of almost look back at that moment in the bathroom and thought, well, I was just being overdramatic and sort of, you know, it is not that bad. And I just wonder where you think that sort of I don't know if it's underestimating or perhaps just not quite realising how much suffering you were going through in that moment. And, you know, do you think that's a common experience for people in those situations?
Fiona Thomas Yeah, I think it's very common. Um, and I still have this conversation with people all the time where they say, you know, or my friends or maybe text me late at night and say, oh, I can't cope, it's too much. And then the next day they're like, oh, I'm fine, I'm fine. It's like but at that moment you were feeling that, um. So it is really difficult. And I think a lot of it is down to the way that we are presented with mental illness as children, as we're grown up, even as adults. How it's presented in the media is very much, um, you know, quote-unquote, normal people act this way and people with mental illness are the other end of the spectrum and they're completely out of control and they have to be hospitalised and they're crying all the time. And I think a lot of us have gotten in our heads that to be mentally ill is really visible, and it's really crystal clear that they cannot cope with life. Um, but a lot of us are suffering with mental illness and we're functioning we're managing to function day to day. And we think that if we can get out of bed in the morning and we can go to work or we can put the kids to school or we can go out at the weekend, or we can't be mentally ill because we're doing all these things that quote-unquote normal people can do. Um, and there's such a, it's on such a spectrum and there's such an overlap between being mentally ill and presenting yourself as absolutely fine – and I think that that was the issue for me was that I could pretend to be fine.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And that was another point that really resonated with me in the book, is when you talk about keeping up appearances and you say that there is a real difference between, you know, what, we, um, I mean, it's sort of a buzzword now, self care. And I think that the real depth of understanding of what that means is perhaps lost in sort of marketing. But, you know, the difference between self care and keeping up appearances and that, you know, you were able to function and do certain things and get your hair down or whatever, purely because it was part of this role in a way of appearing like everything was OK, rather than coming from a from a position of self care.
Fiona Thomas And also what I've learnt recently is the self care and, um, like unhealthy coping mechanisms also overlap greatly. Um, for me, when I was off work with exercise, I was like, this will be great, this will help me get better. And so I did a lot of exercise, but then I started to restrict my food and then it got to a point where I was exercising seven days a week for like two or three hours a day. And I wasn't eating certain food groups and I was cancelling plans with friends because I want to go to the gym instead. So there's a spectrum where, you know, self care can turn into self sabotage or, you know, self harm in some cases. Um, and for me, that getting up and pretended to be OK was definitely my, like, workaholic tendencies. So although sometimes it is good to just get dressed and go on with your day and something. Just getting started can help. For me, that was a defence mechanism of no, I'll just keep going to work and pretend like everything's fine.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, and I'm sure a lot of people possibly listening to this podcast can relate to exactly that. Um, Fiona, I wonder what it was like for you, you know, when you went to the doctors and it wasn't just you needed two weeks off. It wasn't just short term stress. It was a larger problem. And again, you speak in the book about being stamped by a single word; 'depression'. I wonder how you responded to that. Were you resistant? Did you embrace it? Did you have to come to terms with it? What was that like for you?
Fiona Thomas I definitely, I didn't embrace it. I was on one hand very relieved that there was a name for how I was feeling, because up until that point, I just thought I was really bad at being an adult.
Frankie Cotton That's heartbreaking!
Fiona Thomas But there were people that I had I thought that I had expressed the fact that I wasn't coping, and adults, namely white, middle-aged male adults, had said 'this is what work is like'. And this you know, chin up, especially because I was young, a lot of people had said, you know, in the beginning, you really have to put you have to put that hard work in. But that point, I'd been working in this industry for a decade or more. So I kind of thought, I feel like I've kind of already put the work in. But yeah, I felt like I kind of expressed that I wasn't coping, but maybe I probably hadn't done that as loudly as I thought I had. A lot of people had just said, you know, this is what works like, we all hate our job, those kind of comments. Um, so, like I say, I just thought I was rubbish at holding my life together because I didn't do things like, I didn't have time to cut the grass, I didn't have time to clean my house. I didn't have time to have hobbies and stuff like that. So I just thought I was rubbish at being an adult. So having a diagnosis was on one hand, very, very helpful for me because internally I felt like, OK, it's not me like I haven't done anything wrong. It's just that life has got too much and it has got to a point now where doctors acknowledge it and it probably was that validation thing, again, of, these feelings are validated by medical experts and they see that I'm not making it up so that's such a relief. And yet I think labels can be really, really helpful for people because it helps you kind of separate yourself from the illness and just gives you that sense of, OK, I'm not just making this up in my head there is something there. But it wasn't, I didn't embrace it in the sense of that I wanted to tell people because I definitely didn't want to tell people that I had depression and I only told my parents and my very close friends and family and didn't really want anyone else to know which is obviously quite funny, considering that I've now made a career out of being a mental health writer, so yeah it's is pretty funny.
Frankie Cotton Well, I was going to ask, actually, as you said, that, how did that transition to, you know, really 180 and actually writing the book about your experience?
Fiona Thomas Yeah. So there was six years between me being diagnosed and the book coming out.
Frankie Cotton Gosh, yeah. That's quite a long time.
Fiona Thomas And really it just happened because like you said, during that period of being off work and kind of losing my identity and not really knowing what I would do without work was when I started a blog, um, but I didn't write about my mental health. I wrote about health and fitness and healthy eating, which was my current obsession was just kind of told you about, um. But I got bored of writing of that stuff and I wrote a few more honest blog posts around 2015, I started writing about the fact that I had given up alcohol for a year and what it was like to be in a social circle when you don't drink and the pressure that other people put on you to drink. And I wrote a lot about body image because I got married in 2015 and on my wedding day, I remember looking around and just feeling like a sense of I really shouldn't be putting my body through this anymore because I've got so many people around me that love me and care about me. Why I must be in the 90 percent of my time counting calories and working out at the gym because all these people would have come here no matter what I looked like. So I wrote a lot of pieces about that, about mental health-related topics and I just felt such a sense of fulfilment to write them, even though not that many people were reading them at the time, I just felt such a great, great sense of this is meaningful words. This is just... these are, these are meaningful words that mean something, and I want them to be in print and I want them to exist because it's not fluffy. It's what real people are going through and I just really wanted to kind of put it out there. So it was a slow process. And I didn't tell friends and family really about my blog, it existed on the Internet and I didn't really tell anyone about it until probably a year or so after I'd written most of the blog posts. So it was a very gradual process. And I talk a lot in the book about how the Internet was my kind of training ground for talking openly about mental illness. So on Instagram and on the blog that was the place where I'll organise my thoughts and I said, you know, I wasn't ready to say out loud, 'I had a mental breakdown', but I could, I could type out and I could read it back. And that just kind of eased me into that sense of now I can, now that people know and it's out there and the world hasn't crumbled. I can say it aloud and everything will still be OK.
Frankie Cotton And have you noticed much change or evolution in the way that we speak about mental health during that time, so from when you were first diagnosed with depression and anxiety to now, have you seen a big step change? And actually, if you have, is it all positive or, you know, what do you think is potentially lacking?
Fiona Thomas Yeah, back then there wasn't really well, there were people blogging about mental illness and mental health, but they weren't really in my sphere. I was definitely following beauty bloggers and lifestyle bloggers. So I felt like nobody was really talking about it, whereas now, it feels like every YouTuber or every blogger has got that one, at least one blog post that says, guys, I've got something to tell you. And it's that they've got anxiety or depression or some sort of mental illness, which is great. I'm so glad that the majority of people in my bubble feel kind of confident enough to open up about it now. But I'm aware that I'm in this bubble of people who are happy to talk about it. I know that when I step out of that into other circles that it's not as easy to talk about.
Frankie Cotton So I think there's still a lot of work to be done and Fiona, how, I'm interested to know how your workplace responded to what happened to you. Were they supportive? Did you get the help and support that you needed from them or was there a misunderstanding from them about, you know, what you're experiencing and the fact that you needed time off? What was that like?
Fiona Thomas They were really, really good, actually.
Frankie Cotton OK, that's good.
Fiona Thomas Yeah, they were a big company and they had an H.R. department, and that's the only company I've ever worked out that actually had an H.R. department because I've always worked with smaller businesses. So that was great. Thankfully, thank goodness I was in a role that I got paid sick leave, which again was the only place I've ever had that. I got access to a counsellor for a short period of time, and then I moved to an NHS counsellor, but their approach was really just take as long as you need. There wasn't much contact with them. So there was no pressure to come back or anything like that, and then they invited me to do a phased return after I think it was about three months. I tried one or two days and was crying at work again. And thankfully, the H.R. rep was like, oh, you definitely shouldn't be crying at work, so please go home, which was good. And after trying to go back, I think that was when I just realised, you know, I'm not, I'm not ever going to be able to go back to this job and it's not necessarily the employers fault. It's just work culture in general to me, just wasn't, set up, corporate culture wasn't set up for me. And that as well, combined with the fact that the job was customer-facing as well. I just knew that the customer-facing and work as well was really, really putting a lot of pressure on me to show up and pretend to be happy within a set amount of hours every day, um, and to deal with a lot of problem solving, a lot of fighting fires, which I just knew I wasn't going to be able to go back to. So I left through choice after a bit more thinking over time.
Frankie Cotton And it's it's interesting what you say about your experience. And I'm sure that while the numbers show that there are a lot of people in your position, so improving mental health was a motivator for 29 percent of freelancers who were taking the leap. And that was a survey that was done last year. So 29 percent is a huge amount, you know, using that that being the reason why they've decided to go freelance. However, you will know this more than anyone, probably that being and going freelance can also in itself be a struggle, a different one. You know, perhaps, you know, it's not a toxic work culture that's putting itself on you and you are having to survive in that world. But there are other challenges with, you know, creating your own income and varying levels of income, for example, and all of the other challenges that come with being freelance. And I wonder, how have you learnt to manage that now and and learn how to thrive in that environment?
Fiona Thomas Yeah, you're right. That's, I say to people I went freelance to manage my mental health, but there's a whole new set of mental health issues that come with being freelance. Absolutely. And I think it's just down to the individual which type of stress they prefer? A stress that's boxed into, you know, a nine to five or do they prefer one that comes and goes but you've got the control to kind of manipulate and change um, and to me the positives outweigh the negatives for being freelance. And one of the things that I really didn't think would affect me when I started working from home was the loneliness because I'm an introvert, like I said, I hated working in customer service. I like working in teams, but also much prefer just being responsible for my own work. I didn't like being a manager, didn't like having to kind of rally people up and get them to work to a certain standard. So I was, I couldn't wait. I was like, this is great. I'm going to work from home. I won't see anyone all day. I'm going to just live my best life. And I do love that but what I didn't realise was the isolation. Whether you like it or not, has a physiological effect on you, and it does make you tired and it does make you sad, and I mean, it can even there's studies that say people who are lonely will die sooner than those who aren't lonely. So we are social beings. We need social time. And that's one of the best things I've had to really actively force myself to do. Because my gut instinct is, no, I'm happy being alone. I don't have that urge to be out and about with people, but I know that I need to do it. So I made a conscious decision to make other freelance friends in my area and go out for coffee and go out for lunch. And the good thing is I have more energy now to do things in the evenings and weekends, which when I was working in a management job, I don't really want to do anything on the weekends. And so, like I say, I was an introvert, I feel like I fill my cup up during the day because I'm doing creative stuff and I'm on my own. And then in the evenings and weekends I'm ready to socialise again. So I definitely have to force myself to do that. And I do a lot of voice notes, a lot of ranty voice notes to other freelancers that I know because you don't get those, that stuff that you have at work where you know, you give someone the eye and say, I'll meet you in the break room, I've got something to tell you. Or, you know, you both witnessed something and you can't wait to talk it over with the other person that was in the room – those kind of watercooler moments you don't get as a freelancer and they're so important. So I feel like you have to really work hard to create them for yourself.
Frankie Cotton And I'm curious as to how you've managed that during lockdown and, you know, we're talking here on the day that Boris Johnson is going to give another sort of public announcement this evening. So we have a sense, I think, that potentially mini lockdowns or, you know, regional lockdown or things could well be on the cards again this year. And I wonder, what was that like? You know, knowing what you know about loneliness and how to try to keep yourself in the best sort of spirits, I don't know if spirits is the right way. But to help manage, manage your mental health. And I know a lot of people who probably are listening to this podcast would have experienced some real challenging moments during lockdown if they've never been at home or isolated or working from home. Do you have any ways of, any strategies of kind of alleviating that loneliness or keeping well during lockdown? Did you find anything useful?
Fiona Thomas I think lockdown is like the hardest time to try and socialise as a freelancer and I definitely didn't do it enough. And I found that when I did socialise with people, I found it really, really hard on Zoom and group chats and stuff like that. I found it really hard because I feel like when you, at the moment when you step into a social situation, even if it's just online, you really have to be ready to carry the emotional weight of what other people put on you. And everyone has got so much going on right now, like everyone is struggling. So to me, I probably pulled back a bit on the social interaction stuff. And I felt really apprehensive about texting friends who I normally would text to say how's it going? Because I really had put up my barriers because I wasn't ready to take on someone else's problems because I had so many of my own. And I think a lot of people have felt like that.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. Yeah.
Fiona Thomas And I think if lockdown has taught me anything, it's that we do actually need to look internally sometimes when it comes to supporting yourself emotionally. So I invested in coaching and therapy because I knew that I could tell them the way I was talking to my friends, that they were really didn't have the capacity to listen to the stuff that I needed to get off my chest. So that's maybe not helpful advice, but that was my experience, is that I found it really, really hard. Um, so maybe I guess maybe lower your expectations as to how much emotional support you can get from your friends and family – still reach out, and still ask. I've got a few friends that I know that they are doing fine but as soon as they are not fine, I need to know that I can look after myself, um, and that I can do my own kind of self care stuff. Um, but definitely like I've probably leaned more into the business communities and the freelance communities as opposed to friends. So I've joined a lot of online events and stuff like that. There's some really good online communities; The Cool Working Club is a great one, Independent Ghetto's Collectives is another one which is really good because they get what it's like to be self-employed.
Frankie Cotton Which is a unique challenge.
Fiona Thomas Yeah. So if I've got, uh, if I've got a work related kind of thing that I want to chat through, I feel like it's better to go to people who understand, understand that situation and just trying to do Zoom calls if I feel like it, but I don't know about you, but I think Zoom calls are sometimes just as exhausting as not seeing people?
Frankie Cotton I know, I've definitely felt like that. I think I don't know what week it was, but I thought I can't go on another Zoom and make small talk with, as you said, you know, all your friends and everyone's struggling. So you're not really supporting each other necessarily because you don't have the capacity and nobody's doing anything so there's nothing to talk about. So, yeah, I found, I'm with you. I found them particularly tough.
Fiona Thomas The big thing for me was that we managed to, so we live in North Birmingham, but our families obviously live in Scotland, that's where my accent is from so when lockdown lifted we managed to go home and we were going to stay for two weeks and we ended up staying for three and that was the biggest, the biggest thing for me was leaning into family, like literally being able to see them and talk to them was the best. So I guess when this comes out, you may not be able to do that, but definitely plan for that if you can.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, I know we'll listen back to this and think we were so naive or unaware as to what was going on the corner. Well, hopefully, you know, things won't get so bad again. Fiona, there's something else I really, really want to pick up on from your book, from your first book, Depression in the Digital Age. And this is, you mention a lot about wearing a Girl Boss hat and that that was a role for you and it was a costume that you could sort of put on every day and it was a way for you to manage the stresses that were happening and potentially deny a little bit about the reality of what you're going through. And I wonder, now, what do you think of the title, Girl Boss and your, based on your internalisation of it, do you think it's a damaging term or an empowering term or what relationship do you have with that?
Fiona Thomas I think like you say yeah, when I was working in management and when I was kind of side hustling, I definitely identified with that term because it gave me, I think for me, it just gave me, it gave me a little place in the world which at that point, up until that point, I didn't feel like I really had one. And I think when you, now that I'm fully freelance, you forget how hard it is to side hustle. And as a side hustler, I think that that gave me a little place in the world where I was like, 'yeah I still work like this waitressing job that I don't enjoy. But I deserve better. And I'm going to I'm going to work to get myself into a place that feels better.' So for me, then Girl Boss probably did feel good because it felt like it felt like a big F you to traditional employment and it was great. But then when I went freelance, I definitely don't, I don't feel aligned with that term just because I don't, I don't aspire to be a boss or in a position of authority, I just aspire to create a life that's creative and flexible and accommodates my mental health, but I don't really judge anyone who uses it. I know that it has caused a bit of issue because as bosses, we should be bosses of any gender and obviously using the word girl, as opposed to women is a bit problematic, um, but yeah, if it works for you, then I'd say good for you.
Frankie Cotton Mhm. Yeah, I agree with you and I think that, um, if a movement has inspired potentially thousands of young women to, um, to understand their position and work in a different way and to actually feel more empowered, then, you know. Yes. OK, we should use women and not go and it should be, you know, not a gender term. It's kind of like, well, you know, progress isn't perfect. You can't just come up with the perfect solution and jump from, you know, A to Z. There's a whole series of steps through that process.
Fiona Thomas Yeah, and the Girl Boss movement probably inspired a lot of people who are the people now saying, yeah, oh, we you know, we shouldn't be using that term?
Frankie Cotton Definitely. Definitely. And I think, you know, as feminists, that happens a lot. You know, progress moves quickly and then you look back at things and think, well, I don't associate with that anymore. I've evolved. My thinking has evolved from there. So one can judge it retrospectively. And I think we have to be careful not to do that. But, yeah, that's interesting how that was for you at that time. So, Fiona, I've got to say thank you so much for everything that you've shared with us and you've shared really generously and openly. And I think it's just brilliant. And, you know, your new book, Out of Office is just such a great practical guide for anyone who's going freelance or even if you already are. You know, I think it's the tips and you know, this all the stuff about tax is one of those topics that people always, um, or not always, but sometimes have a fear about. So I think it's great that you've captured all of those things, but I'd love to give you the opportunity now really, is there anything that we've not talked about that you'd like to share with the listeners or anything you'd like to pass on?
Fiona Thomas Um, something I was really keen to get across in Out of Office is that freelancing is not perfect. It's not for everyone. So in the first section of the book, I give a kind of like lay of the land and what freelancing is like just now. And also just give an honest account of the good parts and the bad parts. And it's also not as hard as you might think. It's difficult, but I always say to people, if I can do it, then anyone can do it because I did a degree in music and then I went and worked in hospitality for almost a decade. Then I had a mental breakdown and then I went to be a waitress and I started blogging. And now know I've written two books. It's just you just don't know where your career, your career trajectory is going. So please don't write yourself off and think that you're not good enough to be freelance or that you don't have the mental strength to do it, because I never thought that this is what we'd be doing but if you want a flexible workplace and you want to have joy at work as opposed to trading, you know, nine o'clock on a Monday then freelance and offer so much flexibility, um, and I think stability, because you can really build a business that's got multiple income streams and can kind of react to things like a global pandemic. And it will see you through. It can see you through for a lifetime.
Frankie Cotton Wow. Thank you so much. And it's been so great to talk to you.
Fiona Thomas And you! Thank you so much for having me.
Frankie Cotton Oh, thanks, Fiona.
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