Humble Beginnings, Self-Expression and Growing a Fashion Brand
Episode 58
Frankie’s guest today is Lucy Aylen, founder and CEO of Never Fully Dressed. Starting life as a market stall, then a modest store in Essex, Never Fully Dressed has grown to become an Instagram sensation, with celebrity fans Beyonce, Kendall Jenner and Chrissy Teigen wearing Lucy’s designs.
In this episode, Lucy tells us how she’s built Never Fully Dressed without outside investment, reinvesting profits from sales to grow organically. Lucy explains how her growing brand now has a public responsibility, and how she wants to use its voice to influence positive change.
They talk about sustainability and ethics within the fashion industry and the Never Fully Dressed pre-loved project, where you can send items you no longer wear back to NFD in exchange for loyalty points.
And finally, Lucy shares her insights on balancing idealism with a sharp commercial focus and reminds us to nurture every relationship within our organisations.
This conversation was recorded on 22nd October 2020. We hope you enjoy listening.
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Episode Chapters
00:00 Chapter 1: Humble beginnings
03:45 Chapter 2: Growing with no outside investment
08:30 Chapter 3: Authenticity online
10:47 Chapter 4: NFD’s design & brand evolution
12:57 Chapter 5: Perseverance, change and the impact of Covid
18:51 Chapter 6: The future of fashion, sustainability and ethics
24:26 Chapter 7: The social impact
27:50 Chapter 8: Listen to your gut
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This episode was sound edited by Beth Davison https://www.bethdavison.com/. Women On Top is a Let’s Be Frank production. https://letsbefrank.co
EPISODE 58 TRANSCRIPT
Frankie Cotton Lucy, welcome to Women on Top.
Lucy Aylen Hello, thanks for having me.
Frankie Cotton Firstly, Lucy, how are you? How are things where you are?
Lucy Aylen Good. Yeah. Can't complain. We're all healthy, so yeah. that's all you can ask for in 2020.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, absolutely. So, Lucy, I'd love to start really right at the beginning where Never Fully Dressed began. And I know that you started trading at markets and I just wonder if you can sort of tell us about that time and how the business came into being.
Lucy Aylen I wanted to be an actress and I wasn't getting any work and I'm a bit of a workaholic. So I think from then I just started customising, making stuff – I was always creative, always made clothes just for myself. I wasn't good, but that's fine. When it's just a market, people can see if you've dropped a stitch or whatever it is and when we started, everything was one size, so it was all oversized. I could make a big oversized pattern and it was just fun, to be honest, the market, I think that's how it started and that's why I continued. Spitalfields and Portabello – three days a week I had a great crowd of friends who all used to do the market you'd go drinking after, probably go straight to the market the next day. And it was just fun, really. With the market, you never used to have any commitment. I'd kind of go in and out of love of it. If ever I travelled I'd do a market in New York, or I'd go visit someone in Australia and I'd do a market store, whatever. You can float around a bit because there's no real pressure. But then I think we got a store about five years ago, so we moved our office and space and then you have a bit more commitment. So I think there were kind of two starts of, Never Fully Dressed. I had that first when it was just, it wasn't a brand and then maybe Never Fully Dressed more of a business kind of started maybe five years ago I suppose we had commitment, I had rent to pay. You had a premises to be at where we had orders online every day. Whereas before it was okay, I might get orders while I'm at the market but I can post them in a few days or something. I don't know. So you had more commitments, I think, there was another start of it then.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And I wonder, Lucy, do you know what sort of changed for you and when you decided to kind of take that step and enter that new world of commitment?
Lucy Aylen Because my mum said I had to. We were working in her loft and we devalued our house like carrying boxes up and down the stairs all the time. I had a couple of people who worked for me, they still work for me now, they'd all have keys to my mum and dad's house. They were like, come on, Luc, maybe get another premises now, so we weren't always there.
Frankie Cotton Yeah.
Lucy Aylen So that's why really! And then, not necessarily one in a shop, my mum and dad had loads of shops and it just seemed like a headache. So I never used to want a shop, but I needed an office space. And if the front of the shop paid, if that paid for the rent, that was a bonus. So I just had free office space essentially. But then it's worked out that we outgrew that. And the shop is amazing. I love our shop.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And I and I'm just thinking about that time. Was there anything that you were sort of fearful of or that you were concerned about or was it just this sort of constant momentum? Did you just keep putting one step in front of the other?
Lucy Aylen No, I feel like the bigger it gets, that's when more responsibility and more worry. I don't know. Maybe I have a family now, I didn't at the time. Again, I didn't have any commitments that wise. Now, if you have a mortgage and you have a family, you get nervous if you make a wrong decision or when you've got more to lose, you know, the stakes are higher – that's what I mean. When you make decisions now, whereas at the time I think it might've been a three year get out clause on my lease or whatever it was, so the rent's not extortionate. So you just had to cover that. There wasn't. Yeah, there was no fear at all. Really was. It was fun.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. So I know that you've grown or my understanding certainly as you've grown, Never Fully Dressed without outside investment. And I wonder, was that a decision that you sort of made consciously from the outset and and how did you manage cash flow in those early days when it's all a bit chaotic, to say the least?
Lucy Aylen The early days I found fine. I think that's just my mentality. I've never had a credit card. I've always been that type if I can afford something, I'll buy it, if I can't afford it, I'm more than happy not having it. And I don't like the idea of borrowing money off of anyone, so I'm very much like live to your means.
Frankie Cotton Yeah.
Lucy Aylen So yeah. It's just always come from that. I remember, I think I did a car boot sale to first get like a few hundred pound to then buy materials to buy other things for when I first started the markets, or whatever. So it just kind of worked from there. I think it was more the middle, the middle times. Say maybe a few years ago that felt harder. And I started questioning is this then holding me back from growth or whatever? And I still question that now. But yeah, it was only maybe, was it last year, the year before when we got the fashion sponsorship for Love Island that I considered we would have needed investment for but it transpired that, that wasn't right for us anyway. I think from then it made me look at our situation maybe differently. Where do we want to be? How do we work from that? And then if our cash flow was hindering that. So we didn't go for the investment, but it did make me think, OK, what structure do we need as a business? So yeah, we still just work on that cash flow. But I think you need to get to a point where you think, do you need help? Like what are you good at? You assess your role within the business, if that's changing and fill positions that are good at what you're not good at.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, yeah. And I and I guess, you know, seeing how Never Fully Dressed has, I think it's, you know, certainly from the outside it looks like the growth over the last few years has just been phenomenal. There must, with every sort of year or so or every new phase that comes, there must be a real self-development exercise for you.
Lucy Aylen It changes, I think more so in the last few years. I feel like my role is changing all the time. And yeah, adapting to that and seeing where you fit? I don't know, even in your own office you're like okay, I don't know, your role changes, you learn or, I like learning. So even that process that we didn't end up going for the investment. But you're, you learn or you meet new people and I think that's important as when you own a business sometimes there's no one to speak to on a certain level or decisions or whatever they are so I say other entrepreneurs or other people in another industry or whatever it is I think you learn from. But I think there was a point. I remember going through this process and thinking I just didn't want money from a like male, middle aged white men thinking, no, why should I have to take your money to do something that I want to do? Like maybe I might end up one day I'll be like, please give me a money. But at that point that I felt quite strong that no, I feel like I want to try and do that myself.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, definitely. Well, I guess it makes sense to stay open-minded to the opportunities like you clearly have done. Right?
Lucy Aylen I think there was a point where I wasn't open because my sister's an investment broker, so probably an ideal person if I did want that. But she used to always try and push me into this, that way. And it wasn't for me. I mean, so I think I feel I don't know, not embarrassed, cause I've never had to explain my numbers to someone. So if I've had a bad week again, that's okay, because I feel like she used to want me to put everything on the table and be like, that's where I am. And I don't know, I'd feel like I wasn't mature enough in that field in that part of the business, maybe. So I'm maybe a bit embarrassed or I say like willingness to be open to that, because maybe five years ago, if I did go down that route, I might be in a different place now, I don't, I don't know, but maybe I could have been more open.
Frankie Cotton Well, it's always a process. It certainly was a process. And I mean, by not taking the investment, I think that makes you, can make you particularly creative and, you know, find ways of generating revenue or serving customers in, you know, in really unexpected and interesting ways. Would you agree?
Lucy Aylen Yeah. So it makes you, well, you're counting every pound to me. So if we're doing something on social and that generates something small, you're like, okay. But that's them funded. If you have something else you want to do and you just manage that. Yeah. You kind of wear a few more hats and stuff and it keeps it interesting.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. I love that you've mentioned social actually, because I think what you guys do on social media is just brilliant. I just love it and I think that it's really just authentic and straightforward. But I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean in the sort of brilliance of the simplicity of actually just connecting with people in a really genuine way and giving them, you know, the different styling tips and things for your clothes, which, you know, actually we all really want really benefit from. And I think it's just really refreshing to see how you guys are on social.
Lucy Aylen Yeah, I think there was no again, it wasn't conscious. I think I'm just quite an honest person. So, yeah, there wasn't really a brand that's still trendy, but everything feels maybe a bit elitist or you have to be super trendy to whether or rich or skinny or whatever the thing would be. Yeah. Like women that feel confident and that's quite inspiring for me. And that someone looks the best if they feel that way. So if you can, I don't know, give the people the just to feel relaxed about it. I don't know. I don't like painting it as something else, do you know what I mean, 'cause it's not like we're doing anything crazy. It's just OK. Yeah, you are beautiful, but just as a standard. Now it's quite trendy to love yourself about the flaws that you have. I think that's a different thing.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, yeah.
Lucy Aylen I think it's just a bit more authentic, like, okay, I've got flaws, I don't even mention them. And that's why I loved up just because they are, they're just there. That's the dress. This is how you feel confident and how you wear it for yourself.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, and I think that that's brilliant because, you know, there are, I think, movements that you're sort of alluding to there, which are, you know, body positivity and they're brilliant but sometimes you just want to get dressed in the morning and not sort of have this big conversation with yourself about your flaws or how you feel about them.
Lucy Aylen I know sometimes it's too serious.
Frankie Cotton You just think, no, I just need an outfit that makes me feel great.
Lucy Aylen I know. Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes now it's a little bit indulgent, even more so. On Oh, you must love all of these things about yourself, where sometimes, no, I'm a mum, my skins a bit wobbly. That's fine, but that's not relevant to my day so I don't know why I would give it a, I don't know, we go through phases. That's just. Yeah. My mood at the minute on how I feel about that.
Frankie Cotton Well, and I think that there's a real extension of that in the designs of the clothes themselves. And I think that they're wonderful because they are, they're sort of glam and make you feel good. But they're also sort of really super relaxed and comfortable. And I wonder, you know, where did that design come from and how did that evolve over the years?
Lucy Aylen A few elements, really. I think the first thing was, like I said, originally, it was one size fits all because that's the pattern I could make. And then we were like, OK, as we grew a little bit to do a small, medium, medium-large. And if things were a wrap, because it's not a six, eight, 10, if you were a six or a 10 you'd buy the same dress, but you could just tie it different. So it kind of came from a practical sense. But then also, again, as we grow even more so and as our audience grows. Oh, yeah. If you've got bigger boobs, like I said before, this is how you tie or I don't know. And I've got three sisters and a mum as well who are all very vocal. My youngest sisters are nineteen twenty and then my mum's early 60s, like they both were Never Fully Dressed in a different way. My mum's actually coming in tomorrow and we're going to do a little styling thing. And then an old friend who used to work for my mum. So we were all different ages and just. Yeah. Showing how that, how you can wear the different products for your age, but just for everyone to be involved in that. And I didn't do it so well in that campaign imagery. But just like family is really important to me. So we're actually launching kids early next year as well. But again, so my kids can be involved. So it just feels a bit more embraced. Like embracing. Yeah.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And I think I do think that really comes across.
Lucy Aylen Do you know Scarlett Moffatt from Gogglebox, she's been loving it at the minute, but like, she tagged us yesterday and it come up like, oh, I just always feel the most confident in Never Fully Dressed like that would be the best message for me to receive or someone say, Oh, I've just had a baby and I didn't feel great, do you know what I mean, I come in and I loved wearing it that yeah is the, for someone to feel confident you've not done anything different. They're the same person that they were when they weren't wearing it. But just to feel that, is nice.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And I think that you know, as, as I said, you know, being on the outside of the brand looking and I think that that is what you've described is there that is the brand. That is how it's perceived – Never Fully Dressed, so, yeah. I hope you're very proud of that and what you've managed to achieve. And in terms of the pandemic, Lucy and this year and I know it's been difficult for everybody and there's been a lot of challenges, you know, personal, business-related, all sorts for different people. And I just wonder how business has been for you and if anything has changed, are there any lasting changes that you're going to be bringing into the business?
Lucy Aylen Loads really, and even small things that we probably might not realise now that we've changed towards and then next year would look back and go, oh okay, we did that or we did even down to say range plan – we never really had Jersey or Lounge before. So things have a different tone to them. How people dress different, small things like, say, when we, when everyone was in lockdown straight away, the girls who worked in our customer service. Almost were flexible with hours because I say we were lucky to have jobs and stuff, whereas now that's expanded and we now offer customer service much wider hours like eight till midnight every day. But that started because people okay, I'll be flexible with my hours just because I want a job. We launched different initiatives during lockdown. I say like a Feel Good Friday thing, which we've now brought back. Things are changing so quickly, like that stopped and then just reading the room again, do you know what I mean, and it's hard. And I think this winter is a different space, I think when we were first in it people were enjoying a slower pace. The weather was amazing. It felt more positive. So still, it was an easier job to get that smile from people. Yeah. Even though you were still keeping that sometimes if you were down or whatever to keep that motivation up. Whereas I feel like this time around, that feels a harder slog, we've expanded our team. I mean, we had a really busy summer, so we've expanded our team to cope with that. And then to be honest, this month has not been, it's been okay, but been a bit quieter than I say the summer.
Frankie Cotton Yeah.
Lucy Aylen So just again, I say range plan will November, that whole kind of Black Friday thing will just affect the industry long term. I think people were going to attack it like they've never before. But long term wise, does that affect then people's buying mentality? So all of that, I think, is just a really weird one. I feel like there's certain brands, obviously, if they were more brick and mortar focussed, brands that I thought were aspirational, I get sale notifications every day from them. Do you know what I mean, so then them as a brand, that's going to take a long time to recover that aspirational thing that I had in my head about them, even though I think they're so cool. But what a shame that they're having to mark down all the time. And then that for me, do I only then shop from them when it's marked down And again, that will take a while to build up again. Yeah.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. It changes the whole perception of the brand. Yeah definitely.
Lucy Aylen But they're brands I think still, are really cool. I like their design, I like their, how they work. So it's really hard and I think it is really like you said before, like it affected people such a wide range. And times like this often do make the rich richer and the poor poorer. So those bigger companies, Amazon, whoever it is, who can really respond like that again. I think agility was a bit of a buzz word around lockdown. And I think we prided ourselves in our, how we worked as a team during that time. But again, things that were relevant then of how we worked and how we adapted, that might've been so good and no we're like oh crap, we've got to change that again but it was working really well before. Yeah, but you're forced into those things and things change all the time that's the nature of the business. But I think, yeah, we're going to have a couple of years really of keep changing and adapting to new operational kind of structure.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, I think there was something really interesting there in what you’re saying around kind of situations happen and you just kind of have to deal with them and respond. And I think that sometimes all of us, we see situations or experience situations we don't like, and rather than just get on with it and figure out a way around it or through it, we try to resist it. And actually that resistance and being like oh God no actually slows you down from getting a solution. And actually just you know, that momentum is what you need to keep up with and it sounds like that's sort of how you're operating.
Lucy Aylen Yeah, I had that chat today even with a colleague, like okay, things will go wrong in life, personal business, whatever. But that's no one's fault. No one's like, they've not sat there and thought, oh, I'm going to do this to really bother that person. Okay, there's a mistake that's been happened and how do we deal with that. You're on the same team everywhere. Everyone we work with, whether it's the postman or manufacturer, whatever they are, all extensions of us. You're only as good as all of those relationships because if that breaks down, everything is connected with that, so it's how you can all work together in work. However big you think that relationship is like every tiny little thing plays that part. So if you can work out those relationships. Actually, Jackie, the same lady I was talking to, she always taught me, like, if you look after your people and your product – I think I've changed the phrase a little bit. But it's basically if you look after your people and your product, your pounds look after themselves. I think now the two focuses really for us as a business and if we concentrate on those relationships and the product, how good that dress is, then I think you'll be fine long term, even if they're small, like short term barriers or whatever, you tend to overcome those. I think if you look after those foundations.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, definitely. And Lucy, I'm really interested to kind of, I think, look at it more long term. So sort of, you know, beyond the situation we're in now. But looking at the future and kind of your brand values and who you want to be in the future and looking at things, you know obviously, like sustainability within the fashion industry and ethics around supply chains and so on, what, where are you going? Where is Never Fully Dressed positioning itself amongst those values? And really, how do you see the future of fashion and your role within it?
Lucy Aylen I think socially, I think we do have now, like our voice is an okay level, do you know what I mean, we're not Beyoncé, but we're kind of I mean, people hear our voice. We have a responsibility there. And I think I think we've made really good ground over the last six months of what we stand for and who we are as a company, probably influenced by a few different things. We've worked with a few people in the past. And, you know, when you look back at that after like they didn't speak to my staff nicely, or they, like that wasn't a nice relationship. And I think that's a good thing about being, owning in a company that you can start to go. No, actually, I only want to work with nice people. I think I can say that now. And I think you grow from that and you have the confidence to be able to say that then as you grow in business but I think sustainably, I mean, I'd say probably seriously from last year we've looked at this is again, um, I like to think we've always done charity work. I used to do that before I started Never Fully Dressed, so from day one, we always had a charity project on the go like till now. But so I'm an ethical person. But I think that that's not good enough. As you grow and you're like I say, your voice gets bigger. You have to how are you putting this into practices? So I'd say maybe the middle of last year, really looking at okay, where are we on this sustainability journey we wanted by this year, really all of our fabrics to be sourced sustainably. But this year's been a bit of a weird one, so, I mean, even travelling, sourcing stuff that's been harder, so we're hoping wovens by spring summer, all our wovens will be recycled polyesters or sustainably sourced. But so this year's thrown timelines back a little bit but we are on that. All packaging we launched this year so that's all fully biodegradable, made from recyclable sources. We have no wastage in our processes. So all of our old fabrics we now use for mask's, we use for jewellery. We used to use before the mask thing like jewellery bags, I believe, very much, so like in that lifecycle of your wardrobe anyway, which is why we launched that last year, that maybe it might have been just the year before. This year's kind of just blinked hasn't it?
Frankie Cotton It's been the longest and also the fastest.
Lucy Aylen I know, it's been a weird one. So we launched like a pre-loved initiative so you can sell back your old NFD to us that we sell on Depop. I mean it started I was wearing something on Instagram once and everyone was like I missed it, like that dress sold out, I didn't get it. So I was like, okay, like I could then sell that, so it's a bit of a win win; one, if you missed out on a best seller that might then pop up on the pre-loved or again, you get points back to spend with Never Fully Dressed. It been a good year. I think that's been about now. So all of these smaller initiatives, as well as just our social voice of who we stand for, really taking action with that, like this week we're launching head scarves in all of our print, so really taking, like I said, inclusivity but, letting that play out in action as well rather than, I suppose, a lot of stems as well from the Black Lives Matter movement. We learnt a lot from there and our responsibility as a brand and being active in that, like forward-thinking in how we respond to that. And I'm lucky that our team is, our values are high as individuals. Yeah, you just have to try. I always think like that's all you can really do, I think and just hope to also use your voice, however big our voice gets. But I do think that's where I would see our growth in a really, I say even last week we had a lovely day, like we sell a t-shirt for a for Tommy's like a child loss charity, just really giving voice to even if you help one person who's gone through that, we had to live with a friend of mine who's gone through that experience a couple of times and just an outreach of people knowing that there's a community there. It's hard, you're a fashion brand, you're selling dresses. But if we're if we have a community around that, I think long term that's important for us. I'd like to look back at it and think, okay, that's what I achieved.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. Yeah. I love I love that. And I think that there's a lot that.
Lucy Aylen I mean it's idealistic as well. I totally get that, that if we weren't selling any dresses, I'm not going to be sitting here, I mean, I can't then be sitting there thinking, okay, but I really want to do these nice things because then I don't have a voice and it goes down a new, so I think it's a balance there. And I think you still have to from a work or business point of view, keep all the other side's going to give you that platform and to be able to use your voice for good. So yeah, there is a balance there.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And I wonder actually specifically on that point because I think a lot of certainly the women that I speak to for this podcast and kind of beyond in the community is that oftentimes but not in all cases, women really want to make a difference in the businesses that they run and the way they do it and have, you know, more of a social impact. And I just wonder.
Lucy Aylen But that may be why they stay more modest, I say because to be the biggest and the best, that's hard to keep that.
Frankie Cotton Well this is my question to you is how do you balance, you know, that the idealistic side of you, which I think is incredible and really inspiring and exactly the kind of businesses we need with the focus on the commercials, how do you balance that and how do you make sure that that balance also is instilled within your team as well?
Lucy Aylen I think I've just got a good mix of staff. And I think that's what, again, would inspire me how we say that the product is for all those different people. I feel like just having different staff input, like someone's got really commercial taste that I'd ask their opinion on a certain dress for certain thing, but then others might have a bit more of a quirky thing. So again, the same in there. You have different people who, like my mum's got a very commercial, if I'm doing anything she always brings me back to be like what's selling or whatever. I think you just have different influences within the office, within I mean, you need different dynamics, not one can have the same view because again, you'd only work in the same direction. But again, staff is one of the hardest things about any. No matter what size your business is.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, and how I mean, with your staff, how do you maintain this sort of great level of energy and the sort of enthusiasm.
Lucy Aylen They're just drunk all the time, no joking! I don't know. Just I think a genuine. I'm genuinely appreciative of every one of them. I mean, so and I think that they all tend to like each other, I think, I hope and you're all on the same again, I think that came from lockdown, like even a few staff members met other staff members whom they might not have had interaction with before only on Zoom or whatever but, you're like okay, I appreciate now what that person does or I think if I just worked really hard and there's an appreciation for that and knowing that we all want the same goal, again, all of this sounds lovely. So I can imagine if someone's really struggling with their business in a certain aspect. This sounds bad. Listen to this and be like, oh, great. Like bully for you. I mean, because there are times when morale might be down or someone doesn't feel confident in what they do and that's always hard when you think someone's not performing and you know, that's not fun for them or for you. I mean, it's not nice for that person and you're thinking I know I'm not, I know I'm not doing well at this frustration from them, but I mean, so that that's hard. So, again, I'm quite a practical person. I think so. Always just going back to that. Okay. What are the steps of long term? Again, sometimes you try and make things work, but sometimes it's just not right and being practical.
Frankie Cotton Well, Lucy, thank you so much for everything you've shared. I've loved hearing your story and your approach, and I just love to really just give you the mic and ask you, is there anything that you'd like to leave us on or anything perhaps that you've learnt that you want to pass on to the listeners?
Lucy Aylen Yeah knowing that nothing, nothing is that serious. I mean, always step back and think, okay, what your priorities if things feel hard and like I said, when you're again. Sorry I keep using examples but I remember Nigella Lawson, her mum was always on a diet and she was on her deathbed and I think was like, oh, I wish I that donut or whatever it was. I mean, I think when you're older, you think, okay, this time now, what would you be most proud of? What decision do you think you should make but then say make a decision, they say you're better to have done something, regretted it than not do anything at all, and trust your gut. Yeah. Just always trust your gut. I think that really is never wrong. That's what I'd say.
Frankie Cotton Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Lucy. I've really, really enjoyed chatting with you. Thanks.
Lucy Aylen Thank you very much. Have a good day.
Frankie Cotton Lucy, welcome to Women on Top.
Lucy Aylen Hello, thanks for having me.
Frankie Cotton Firstly, Lucy, how are you? How are things where you are?
Lucy Aylen Good. Yeah. Can't complain. We're all healthy, so yeah. that's all you can ask for in 2020.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, absolutely. So, Lucy, I'd love to start really right at the beginning where Never Fully Dressed began. And I know that you started trading at markets and I just wonder if you can sort of tell us about that time and how the business came into being.
Lucy Aylen I wanted to be an actress and I wasn't getting any work and I'm a bit of a workaholic. So I think from then I just started customising, making stuff – I was always creative, always made clothes just for myself. I wasn't good, but that's fine. When it's just a market, people can see if you've dropped a stitch or whatever it is and when we started, everything was one size, so it was all oversized. I could make a big oversized pattern and it was just fun, to be honest, the market, I think that's how it started and that's why I continued. Spitalfields and Portabello – three days a week I had a great crowd of friends who all used to do the market you'd go drinking after, probably go straight to the market the next day. And it was just fun, really. With the market, you never used to have any commitment. I'd kind of go in and out of love of it. If ever I travelled I'd do a market in New York, or I'd go visit someone in Australia and I'd do a market store, whatever. You can float around a bit because there's no real pressure. But then I think we got a store about five years ago, so we moved our office and space and then you have a bit more commitment. So I think there were kind of two starts of, Never Fully Dressed. I had that first when it was just, it wasn't a brand and then maybe Never Fully Dressed more of a business kind of started maybe five years ago I suppose we had commitment, I had rent to pay. You had a premises to be at where we had orders online every day. Whereas before it was okay, I might get orders while I'm at the market but I can post them in a few days or something. I don't know. So you had more commitments, I think, there was another start of it then.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And I wonder, Lucy, do you know what sort of changed for you and when you decided to kind of take that step and enter that new world of commitment?
Lucy Aylen Because my mum said I had to. We were working in her loft and we devalued our house like carrying boxes up and down the stairs all the time. I had a couple of people who worked for me, they still work for me now, they'd all have keys to my mum and dad's house. They were like, come on, Luc, maybe get another premises now, so we weren't always there.
Frankie Cotton Yeah.
Lucy Aylen So that's why really! And then, not necessarily one in a shop, my mum and dad had loads of shops and it just seemed like a headache. So I never used to want a shop, but I needed an office space. And if the front of the shop paid, if that paid for the rent, that was a bonus. So I just had free office space essentially. But then it's worked out that we outgrew that. And the shop is amazing. I love our shop.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And I and I'm just thinking about that time. Was there anything that you were sort of fearful of or that you were concerned about or was it just this sort of constant momentum? Did you just keep putting one step in front of the other?
Lucy Aylen No, I feel like the bigger it gets, that's when more responsibility and more worry. I don't know. Maybe I have a family now, I didn't at the time. Again, I didn't have any commitments that wise. Now, if you have a mortgage and you have a family, you get nervous if you make a wrong decision or when you've got more to lose, you know, the stakes are higher – that's what I mean. When you make decisions now, whereas at the time I think it might've been a three year get out clause on my lease or whatever it was, so the rent's not extortionate. So you just had to cover that. There wasn't. Yeah, there was no fear at all. Really was. It was fun.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. So I know that you've grown or my understanding certainly as you've grown, Never Fully Dressed without outside investment. And I wonder, was that a decision that you sort of made consciously from the outset and and how did you manage cash flow in those early days when it's all a bit chaotic, to say the least?
Lucy Aylen The early days I found fine. I think that's just my mentality. I've never had a credit card. I've always been that type if I can afford something, I'll buy it, if I can't afford it, I'm more than happy not having it. And I don't like the idea of borrowing money off of anyone, so I'm very much like live to your means.
Frankie Cotton Yeah.
Lucy Aylen So yeah. It's just always come from that. I remember, I think I did a car boot sale to first get like a few hundred pound to then buy materials to buy other things for when I first started the markets, or whatever. So it just kind of worked from there. I think it was more the middle, the middle times. Say maybe a few years ago that felt harder. And I started questioning is this then holding me back from growth or whatever? And I still question that now. But yeah, it was only maybe, was it last year, the year before when we got the fashion sponsorship for Love Island that I considered we would have needed investment for but it transpired that, that wasn't right for us anyway. I think from then it made me look at our situation maybe differently. Where do we want to be? How do we work from that? And then if our cash flow was hindering that. So we didn't go for the investment, but it did make me think, OK, what structure do we need as a business? So yeah, we still just work on that cash flow. But I think you need to get to a point where you think, do you need help? Like what are you good at? You assess your role within the business, if that's changing and fill positions that are good at what you're not good at.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, yeah. And I and I guess, you know, seeing how Never Fully Dressed has, I think it's, you know, certainly from the outside it looks like the growth over the last few years has just been phenomenal. There must, with every sort of year or so or every new phase that comes, there must be a real self-development exercise for you.
Lucy Aylen It changes, I think more so in the last few years. I feel like my role is changing all the time. And yeah, adapting to that and seeing where you fit? I don't know, even in your own office you're like okay, I don't know, your role changes, you learn or, I like learning. So even that process that we didn't end up going for the investment. But you're, you learn or you meet new people and I think that's important as when you own a business sometimes there's no one to speak to on a certain level or decisions or whatever they are so I say other entrepreneurs or other people in another industry or whatever it is I think you learn from. But I think there was a point. I remember going through this process and thinking I just didn't want money from a like male, middle aged white men thinking, no, why should I have to take your money to do something that I want to do? Like maybe I might end up one day I'll be like, please give me a money. But at that point that I felt quite strong that no, I feel like I want to try and do that myself.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, definitely. Well, I guess it makes sense to stay open-minded to the opportunities like you clearly have done. Right?
Lucy Aylen I think there was a point where I wasn't open because my sister's an investment broker, so probably an ideal person if I did want that. But she used to always try and push me into this, that way. And it wasn't for me. I mean, so I think I feel I don't know, not embarrassed, cause I've never had to explain my numbers to someone. So if I've had a bad week again, that's okay, because I feel like she used to want me to put everything on the table and be like, that's where I am. And I don't know, I'd feel like I wasn't mature enough in that field in that part of the business, maybe. So I'm maybe a bit embarrassed or I say like willingness to be open to that, because maybe five years ago, if I did go down that route, I might be in a different place now, I don't, I don't know, but maybe I could have been more open.
Frankie Cotton Well, it's always a process. It certainly was a process. And I mean, by not taking the investment, I think that makes you, can make you particularly creative and, you know, find ways of generating revenue or serving customers in, you know, in really unexpected and interesting ways. Would you agree?
Lucy Aylen Yeah. So it makes you, well, you're counting every pound to me. So if we're doing something on social and that generates something small, you're like, okay. But that's them funded. If you have something else you want to do and you just manage that. Yeah. You kind of wear a few more hats and stuff and it keeps it interesting.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. I love that you've mentioned social actually, because I think what you guys do on social media is just brilliant. I just love it and I think that it's really just authentic and straightforward. But I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean in the sort of brilliance of the simplicity of actually just connecting with people in a really genuine way and giving them, you know, the different styling tips and things for your clothes, which, you know, actually we all really want really benefit from. And I think it's just really refreshing to see how you guys are on social.
Lucy Aylen Yeah, I think there was no again, it wasn't conscious. I think I'm just quite an honest person. So, yeah, there wasn't really a brand that's still trendy, but everything feels maybe a bit elitist or you have to be super trendy to whether or rich or skinny or whatever the thing would be. Yeah. Like women that feel confident and that's quite inspiring for me. And that someone looks the best if they feel that way. So if you can, I don't know, give the people the just to feel relaxed about it. I don't know. I don't like painting it as something else, do you know what I mean, 'cause it's not like we're doing anything crazy. It's just OK. Yeah, you are beautiful, but just as a standard. Now it's quite trendy to love yourself about the flaws that you have. I think that's a different thing.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, yeah.
Lucy Aylen I think it's just a bit more authentic, like, okay, I've got flaws, I don't even mention them. And that's why I loved up just because they are, they're just there. That's the dress. This is how you feel confident and how you wear it for yourself.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, and I think that that's brilliant because, you know, there are, I think, movements that you're sort of alluding to there, which are, you know, body positivity and they're brilliant but sometimes you just want to get dressed in the morning and not sort of have this big conversation with yourself about your flaws or how you feel about them.
Lucy Aylen I know sometimes it's too serious.
Frankie Cotton You just think, no, I just need an outfit that makes me feel great.
Lucy Aylen I know. Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes now it's a little bit indulgent, even more so. On Oh, you must love all of these things about yourself, where sometimes, no, I'm a mum, my skins a bit wobbly. That's fine, but that's not relevant to my day so I don't know why I would give it a, I don't know, we go through phases. That's just. Yeah. My mood at the minute on how I feel about that.
Frankie Cotton Well, and I think that there's a real extension of that in the designs of the clothes themselves. And I think that they're wonderful because they are, they're sort of glam and make you feel good. But they're also sort of really super relaxed and comfortable. And I wonder, you know, where did that design come from and how did that evolve over the years?
Lucy Aylen A few elements, really. I think the first thing was, like I said, originally, it was one size fits all because that's the pattern I could make. And then we were like, OK, as we grew a little bit to do a small, medium, medium-large. And if things were a wrap, because it's not a six, eight, 10, if you were a six or a 10 you'd buy the same dress, but you could just tie it different. So it kind of came from a practical sense. But then also, again, as we grow even more so and as our audience grows. Oh, yeah. If you've got bigger boobs, like I said before, this is how you tie or I don't know. And I've got three sisters and a mum as well who are all very vocal. My youngest sisters are nineteen twenty and then my mum's early 60s, like they both were Never Fully Dressed in a different way. My mum's actually coming in tomorrow and we're going to do a little styling thing. And then an old friend who used to work for my mum. So we were all different ages and just. Yeah. Showing how that, how you can wear the different products for your age, but just for everyone to be involved in that. And I didn't do it so well in that campaign imagery. But just like family is really important to me. So we're actually launching kids early next year as well. But again, so my kids can be involved. So it just feels a bit more embraced. Like embracing. Yeah.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And I think I do think that really comes across.
Lucy Aylen Do you know Scarlett Moffatt from Gogglebox, she's been loving it at the minute, but like, she tagged us yesterday and it come up like, oh, I just always feel the most confident in Never Fully Dressed like that would be the best message for me to receive or someone say, Oh, I've just had a baby and I didn't feel great, do you know what I mean, I come in and I loved wearing it that yeah is the, for someone to feel confident you've not done anything different. They're the same person that they were when they weren't wearing it. But just to feel that, is nice.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And I think that you know, as, as I said, you know, being on the outside of the brand looking and I think that that is what you've described is there that is the brand. That is how it's perceived – Never Fully Dressed, so, yeah. I hope you're very proud of that and what you've managed to achieve. And in terms of the pandemic, Lucy and this year and I know it's been difficult for everybody and there's been a lot of challenges, you know, personal, business-related, all sorts for different people. And I just wonder how business has been for you and if anything has changed, are there any lasting changes that you're going to be bringing into the business?
Lucy Aylen Loads really, and even small things that we probably might not realise now that we've changed towards and then next year would look back and go, oh okay, we did that or we did even down to say range plan – we never really had Jersey or Lounge before. So things have a different tone to them. How people dress different, small things like, say, when we, when everyone was in lockdown straight away, the girls who worked in our customer service. Almost were flexible with hours because I say we were lucky to have jobs and stuff, whereas now that's expanded and we now offer customer service much wider hours like eight till midnight every day. But that started because people okay, I'll be flexible with my hours just because I want a job. We launched different initiatives during lockdown. I say like a Feel Good Friday thing, which we've now brought back. Things are changing so quickly, like that stopped and then just reading the room again, do you know what I mean, and it's hard. And I think this winter is a different space, I think when we were first in it people were enjoying a slower pace. The weather was amazing. It felt more positive. So still, it was an easier job to get that smile from people. Yeah. Even though you were still keeping that sometimes if you were down or whatever to keep that motivation up. Whereas I feel like this time around, that feels a harder slog, we've expanded our team. I mean, we had a really busy summer, so we've expanded our team to cope with that. And then to be honest, this month has not been, it's been okay, but been a bit quieter than I say the summer.
Frankie Cotton Yeah.
Lucy Aylen So just again, I say range plan will November, that whole kind of Black Friday thing will just affect the industry long term. I think people were going to attack it like they've never before. But long term wise, does that affect then people's buying mentality? So all of that, I think, is just a really weird one. I feel like there's certain brands, obviously, if they were more brick and mortar focussed, brands that I thought were aspirational, I get sale notifications every day from them. Do you know what I mean, so then them as a brand, that's going to take a long time to recover that aspirational thing that I had in my head about them, even though I think they're so cool. But what a shame that they're having to mark down all the time. And then that for me, do I only then shop from them when it's marked down And again, that will take a while to build up again. Yeah.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. It changes the whole perception of the brand. Yeah definitely.
Lucy Aylen But they're brands I think still, are really cool. I like their design, I like their, how they work. So it's really hard and I think it is really like you said before, like it affected people such a wide range. And times like this often do make the rich richer and the poor poorer. So those bigger companies, Amazon, whoever it is, who can really respond like that again. I think agility was a bit of a buzz word around lockdown. And I think we prided ourselves in our, how we worked as a team during that time. But again, things that were relevant then of how we worked and how we adapted, that might've been so good and no we're like oh crap, we've got to change that again but it was working really well before. Yeah, but you're forced into those things and things change all the time that's the nature of the business. But I think, yeah, we're going to have a couple of years really of keep changing and adapting to new operational kind of structure.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, I think there was something really interesting there in what you’re saying around kind of situations happen and you just kind of have to deal with them and respond. And I think that sometimes all of us, we see situations or experience situations we don't like, and rather than just get on with it and figure out a way around it or through it, we try to resist it. And actually that resistance and being like oh God no actually slows you down from getting a solution. And actually just you know, that momentum is what you need to keep up with and it sounds like that's sort of how you're operating.
Lucy Aylen Yeah, I had that chat today even with a colleague, like okay, things will go wrong in life, personal business, whatever. But that's no one's fault. No one's like, they've not sat there and thought, oh, I'm going to do this to really bother that person. Okay, there's a mistake that's been happened and how do we deal with that. You're on the same team everywhere. Everyone we work with, whether it's the postman or manufacturer, whatever they are, all extensions of us. You're only as good as all of those relationships because if that breaks down, everything is connected with that, so it's how you can all work together in work. However big you think that relationship is like every tiny little thing plays that part. So if you can work out those relationships. Actually, Jackie, the same lady I was talking to, she always taught me, like, if you look after your people and your product – I think I've changed the phrase a little bit. But it's basically if you look after your people and your product, your pounds look after themselves. I think now the two focuses really for us as a business and if we concentrate on those relationships and the product, how good that dress is, then I think you'll be fine long term, even if they're small, like short term barriers or whatever, you tend to overcome those. I think if you look after those foundations.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, definitely. And Lucy, I'm really interested to kind of, I think, look at it more long term. So sort of, you know, beyond the situation we're in now. But looking at the future and kind of your brand values and who you want to be in the future and looking at things, you know obviously, like sustainability within the fashion industry and ethics around supply chains and so on, what, where are you going? Where is Never Fully Dressed positioning itself amongst those values? And really, how do you see the future of fashion and your role within it?
Lucy Aylen I think socially, I think we do have now, like our voice is an okay level, do you know what I mean, we're not Beyoncé, but we're kind of I mean, people hear our voice. We have a responsibility there. And I think I think we've made really good ground over the last six months of what we stand for and who we are as a company, probably influenced by a few different things. We've worked with a few people in the past. And, you know, when you look back at that after like they didn't speak to my staff nicely, or they, like that wasn't a nice relationship. And I think that's a good thing about being, owning in a company that you can start to go. No, actually, I only want to work with nice people. I think I can say that now. And I think you grow from that and you have the confidence to be able to say that then as you grow in business but I think sustainably, I mean, I'd say probably seriously from last year we've looked at this is again, um, I like to think we've always done charity work. I used to do that before I started Never Fully Dressed, so from day one, we always had a charity project on the go like till now. But so I'm an ethical person. But I think that that's not good enough. As you grow and you're like I say, your voice gets bigger. You have to how are you putting this into practices? So I'd say maybe the middle of last year, really looking at okay, where are we on this sustainability journey we wanted by this year, really all of our fabrics to be sourced sustainably. But this year's been a bit of a weird one, so, I mean, even travelling, sourcing stuff that's been harder, so we're hoping wovens by spring summer, all our wovens will be recycled polyesters or sustainably sourced. But so this year's thrown timelines back a little bit but we are on that. All packaging we launched this year so that's all fully biodegradable, made from recyclable sources. We have no wastage in our processes. So all of our old fabrics we now use for mask's, we use for jewellery. We used to use before the mask thing like jewellery bags, I believe, very much, so like in that lifecycle of your wardrobe anyway, which is why we launched that last year, that maybe it might have been just the year before. This year's kind of just blinked hasn't it?
Frankie Cotton It's been the longest and also the fastest.
Lucy Aylen I know, it's been a weird one. So we launched like a pre-loved initiative so you can sell back your old NFD to us that we sell on Depop. I mean it started I was wearing something on Instagram once and everyone was like I missed it, like that dress sold out, I didn't get it. So I was like, okay, like I could then sell that, so it's a bit of a win win; one, if you missed out on a best seller that might then pop up on the pre-loved or again, you get points back to spend with Never Fully Dressed. It been a good year. I think that's been about now. So all of these smaller initiatives, as well as just our social voice of who we stand for, really taking action with that, like this week we're launching head scarves in all of our print, so really taking, like I said, inclusivity but, letting that play out in action as well rather than, I suppose, a lot of stems as well from the Black Lives Matter movement. We learnt a lot from there and our responsibility as a brand and being active in that, like forward-thinking in how we respond to that. And I'm lucky that our team is, our values are high as individuals. Yeah, you just have to try. I always think like that's all you can really do, I think and just hope to also use your voice, however big our voice gets. But I do think that's where I would see our growth in a really, I say even last week we had a lovely day, like we sell a t-shirt for a for Tommy's like a child loss charity, just really giving voice to even if you help one person who's gone through that, we had to live with a friend of mine who's gone through that experience a couple of times and just an outreach of people knowing that there's a community there. It's hard, you're a fashion brand, you're selling dresses. But if we're if we have a community around that, I think long term that's important for us. I'd like to look back at it and think, okay, that's what I achieved.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. Yeah. I love I love that. And I think that there's a lot that.
Lucy Aylen I mean it's idealistic as well. I totally get that, that if we weren't selling any dresses, I'm not going to be sitting here, I mean, I can't then be sitting there thinking, okay, but I really want to do these nice things because then I don't have a voice and it goes down a new, so I think it's a balance there. And I think you still have to from a work or business point of view, keep all the other side's going to give you that platform and to be able to use your voice for good. So yeah, there is a balance there.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And I wonder actually specifically on that point because I think a lot of certainly the women that I speak to for this podcast and kind of beyond in the community is that oftentimes but not in all cases, women really want to make a difference in the businesses that they run and the way they do it and have, you know, more of a social impact. And I just wonder.
Lucy Aylen But that may be why they stay more modest, I say because to be the biggest and the best, that's hard to keep that.
Frankie Cotton Well this is my question to you is how do you balance, you know, that the idealistic side of you, which I think is incredible and really inspiring and exactly the kind of businesses we need with the focus on the commercials, how do you balance that and how do you make sure that that balance also is instilled within your team as well?
Lucy Aylen I think I've just got a good mix of staff. And I think that's what, again, would inspire me how we say that the product is for all those different people. I feel like just having different staff input, like someone's got really commercial taste that I'd ask their opinion on a certain dress for certain thing, but then others might have a bit more of a quirky thing. So again, the same in there. You have different people who, like my mum's got a very commercial, if I'm doing anything she always brings me back to be like what's selling or whatever. I think you just have different influences within the office, within I mean, you need different dynamics, not one can have the same view because again, you'd only work in the same direction. But again, staff is one of the hardest things about any. No matter what size your business is.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, and how I mean, with your staff, how do you maintain this sort of great level of energy and the sort of enthusiasm.
Lucy Aylen They're just drunk all the time, no joking! I don't know. Just I think a genuine. I'm genuinely appreciative of every one of them. I mean, so and I think that they all tend to like each other, I think, I hope and you're all on the same again, I think that came from lockdown, like even a few staff members met other staff members whom they might not have had interaction with before only on Zoom or whatever but, you're like okay, I appreciate now what that person does or I think if I just worked really hard and there's an appreciation for that and knowing that we all want the same goal, again, all of this sounds lovely. So I can imagine if someone's really struggling with their business in a certain aspect. This sounds bad. Listen to this and be like, oh, great. Like bully for you. I mean, because there are times when morale might be down or someone doesn't feel confident in what they do and that's always hard when you think someone's not performing and you know, that's not fun for them or for you. I mean, it's not nice for that person and you're thinking I know I'm not, I know I'm not doing well at this frustration from them, but I mean, so that that's hard. So, again, I'm quite a practical person. I think so. Always just going back to that. Okay. What are the steps of long term? Again, sometimes you try and make things work, but sometimes it's just not right and being practical.
Frankie Cotton Well, Lucy, thank you so much for everything you've shared. I've loved hearing your story and your approach, and I just love to really just give you the mic and ask you, is there anything that you'd like to leave us on or anything perhaps that you've learnt that you want to pass on to the listeners?
Lucy Aylen Yeah knowing that nothing, nothing is that serious. I mean, always step back and think, okay, what your priorities if things feel hard and like I said, when you're again. Sorry I keep using examples but I remember Nigella Lawson, her mum was always on a diet and she was on her deathbed and I think was like, oh, I wish I that donut or whatever it was. I mean, I think when you're older, you think, okay, this time now, what would you be most proud of? What decision do you think you should make but then say make a decision, they say you're better to have done something, regretted it than not do anything at all, and trust your gut. Yeah. Just always trust your gut. I think that really is never wrong. That's what I'd say.
Frankie Cotton Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Lucy. I've really, really enjoyed chatting with you. Thanks.
Lucy Aylen Thank you very much. Have a good day.
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