Food Startups, Pregnancy Discrimination and Finding The Right Investment
Episode 60
Gracie and Sophie Tyrrell are the founders of the award-winning snacking brand Squirrel Sisters. The business was launched in 2015 after Sophie was diagnosed with a life-threatening condition and became sensitive to gluten and sugar. Gracie made it her mission to create deliciously indulgent snacks that are 100% natural and free from gluten and added sugar for her sister to enjoy.
In this episode, the Squirrel Sisters talk about all things food startups and how to get from home kitchen to retail shelf. Gracie and Sophie share how they found a suitable manufacturer, upscaled their business and used innovative methods to get their products stocked in the UK's best-loved retailers.
The conversation follows the Squirrel Sisters journey to finding the right investment and Sophie reveals the discrimination she faced after becoming pregnant in the early stages of a private investment deal, a moment that completely changed their growth path.
This conversation was recorded on 22nd October 2020. I hope you enjoy listening.
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Episode Chapters
03:18 Chapter 1 - Introduction
05:38 Chapter 2 - Where it all started
10:16 Chapter 3 - Good Food, Good Mood
13:54 Chapter 4 - Scaling your food startup
21:02 Chapter 5 - Maintaining brand values
24:16 Chapter 6 - Finding the right investment
27:22 Chapter 7 - Pregnancy discrimination
33:05 Chapter 8 - Trusting your gut
39:07 Chapter 9 - The Future of Squirrel Sisters
40:48 Chapter 10 - Final words of wisdom
Episode Resources
Want to try some delicious snacks? https://squirrelsisters.com/products/
Connect with Squirrel Sisters
Connect with Frankie Cotton
Team
Guests - Gracie Tyrrell & Sophie Tyrrell
Host - Frankie Cotton
Production Support - Georgia Buchanan
Sound Editor - Beth Davison
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EPISODE 60 TRANSCRIPT
Frankie Cotton Gracie and Sophie, welcome to Women On Top.
Gracie & Sophie Tyrrell Thank you. Hi. Hello. Thank you for having us.
Frankie Cotton It's a pleasure. So before we get started, I just kind of want to ask you really, how are you in these weird times, which I'm almost bored of hearing myself say.
Sophie Yeah, great, you can go first Gracie.
Gracie Yeah. No, I mean, it's definitely we've had our ups and downs. It's been pretty crazy, but actually we are OK. And yeah, at this point, we've kind of realised how lucky we are to be working with each other because I think it's just having each other to kind of bounce off and have these days where we're just like, oh, God, can't deal with this anymore. And then one of us is always in a better mood than the other one. So, you know, whoever is feeling a little bit lower can get lifted up. So, yeah, it's been tough. But I think, you know, in terms of the business, we at the start were pretty kind of nervous. But then we just thought we've got nothing to lose, let's just put everything into it. And we've ended up creating a whole new range of products and we're launching them this week, actually. So we've definitely turned it around and kind of really pushed ourselves to make the most of this opportunity, which I guess is, a lot of people are saying is an opportunity of time.
Sophie Yeah, I think we found it like at the beginning, we were just like, well, there's nothing we can do. So let's just try. And, you know, Grace just said, make the most of it. And for me, I've got a little girl. So it was nice to actually have some time to get to, like, legitimately spend with her and say, OK, well, you can't be rushing around doing a million things, but it has been tough and, you know, not seeing family and all the personal side of things has been really hard, and now I think everyone's just feeling a bit down because we don't know what's going on. But we've got these new products coming out. We're working with a really exciting guy called Wilfred who we'll talk about later, I'm sure. So there are some really positive things happening for us. And I'm pregnant again. So lockdown, baby.
Frankie Cotton Congratulations.
Sophie I'm actually sometimes not that fine, but nothing to do with the situation, I'm just tired.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. Well, that's great news. Congratulations.
Sophie Thank you.
Frankie Cotton So I'd like to begin actually right at the beginning of the story for Squirrel Sisters. Where did it all begin for you both?
Sophie So I'll start with this because it started with a routine health check that I had through my job at the time. So everyone was going in, coming back, saying, oh, I eat too much cheese, I drink too much alcohol. I came out with a diagnosed heart condition. So it was something I've been living with my whole life. I had no idea. Now I look back and since the operation and being much better, I realised it really was affecting me. But I didn't know at the time because I just thought that was normal. And so they found out I had something called Wolf Parkinson's White. And essentially what it means is that your heart can just stop so you can drop dead at any time. So it's pretty scary, given that I was trying to do all sorts of, you know, what it's like working in London. It's a busy, early 20s, going out a lot with friends, trying to do various random challenges like the Three Peaks and London to Paris cycle. So I was really pushing myself. So I was very lucky to find out when I did and got operated on quite quickly or like pushed to the front of the queue and had quite a bad experience with my operation. And so it was keyhole surgery, but I just had such a terrible reaction to all the chemicals they pump through you. They do a lot of testing while they are operating and I was not prepared for it at all. So, emotionally and physically, it just completely threw me and I got really, really ill. But the saving grace literally didn't actually mean to say it like that. It was my sister Gracie.
Gracie Quite a good little pun there
Sophie So we were living together in Balham and Gracie was working from home quite a lot cause she was in film and TV. So in between jobs she was around and really massively helped me with looking after me. She was cooking all my meals and that was like the biggest kind of thing that helped me because I found I was, I just became, I suppose it was like an allergic reaction in some ways to quite normal foods, like sugar was the biggest one and then gluten and a few other random things. But sugar for me was just an absolute killer, like I would have say, some ketchup, which has only a small amount of sugar when you think about how much you're eating of it. And I would just have, you know, just wipe me out for days. I would have really about IBS symptoms, but then it would just make me feel really flu like and terrible, so I completely cut it out but then felt really down and generally the situation was quite, you know, rubbish. So not being able to eat foods that made me feel good and have those comforts because obviously wasn't drinking and things like that, so something like food – and Gracie and I have always loved food and and so it was a real kick that I couldn't just eat what I wanted and it was stressing me out. So Gracie made it her mission to first of all, scour every aisle possible, couldn't find anything that was actually really tasty, that had no added sugar. So she started experimenting herself and she came up with these amazing brownie recipes that was eventually with our first product. So that is that's where it all kind of came from.
Frankie Cotton Gosh. And that sounds I mean, you shared with us is there in a couple of minutes all of that time. But that must have been a really, really tough time for you. Like you say so early on in your 20s and sort of completely unexpected. And having the support of your sister, I mean, Gracie, what was it like sort of from your perspective? It must have been tough seeing Sophie go through that, I imagine.
Gracie Yeah, definitely. I mean, we're so close. So I think whenever one of us feels crap, we really kind of feel the other one's pain. So it was definitely really awful to see Sophie like that. And yeah, obviously with the flexibility of my job at the time, it was great because it really made me feel good to be able to help but say I just loved being able to kind of help her and make her feel better through delicious food.
Frankie Cotton Well, it's true. And what you're saying is so right. And I think that probably a lot of us have experienced that, you know, this year is that, you know, small pleasures and the pleasure of really just delicious food when when you can't go out there, there's so many things you can't do. It really does make a big difference.
Gracie Definitely. Definitely. And I think, like, we've always had that kind of mindset about food. You know, it's good food, good mood. And yeah, I think, you know, just being able to create really healthy dishes and also the bars came about as well through that. But yeah, just kind of really, really yummy things that most importantly tasted amazing, so Sophie didn't feel like she was missing out because it was such a dramatic change for her and yeah, kind of, I suppose, slightly cold turkey and a completely cutting sugar and gluten. So, yeah, it was it was a really difficult time. But yeah, it was really great to be able to help and make her feel better. And it's what ended up making us create these bars. And then, yeah, eventually we saw an opportunity to turn the bars into a business and launch them as a product later down. This is in a way later down the line though. At the time, it was never a business idea. It was very much just for ourselves.
Frankie Cotton And I wonder at the point where you sort of made that transition or it certainly became possible for you in your minds, what was that time like? What happened that made you guys think actually, you know, maybe this could be a business, maybe there's something in this?
Sophie I think it was definitely the right time. I mean, way before my operation, we'd, like, explored the idea of working together or starting something, but it just wasn't the right time.
Sophie And after I had the operation and I actually had to have a second operation because the first didn't work, but because I'd changed my lifestyle so much, my recovery was so much quicker. And I decided to move to Singapore to be with my boyfriend at the time. Well, I say at the time, he's my husband now.
Frankie Cotton It's a happy ending.
Sophie So we were both kind of just really wanting to be able to do something in food that works in line with what we were already doing. So we started a blog together. So from other sides of the world, we were sharing our recipes and little things. Our things always about living kind of a good life is possible in the sense that you don't have to miss out. But having that nourishment from food or feeling good, basically. So we started this blog and started getting quite an organic traction from social media without telling anyone because we just kept it a secret to begin with, aside from telling our families. And then, yeah, I kind of said I want to move home. And I was looking for jobs in like food companies. And there just didn't it didn't feel like that was anyone who really resonated with how we believed food should be. And very naively, which is a blessing. We just thought, well, let's start exploring it. You know, everyone loves these brownies that Gracie makes and everyone's always saying, oh, you guys should launch them, so we just thought what have we got to lose it's the right time, let's go for it. And maybe eight months later we were launching in Whole Foods and Planet Organic.
Frankie Cotton And again, you know, you've summarised that really well, but there's a lot there right? Making brownies for each other and for other people is very different to creating a product that can be sold and sit on a shelf. And I wonder and maybe, Gracie, you can speak to this about what that was like creating a product and going through that process?
Gracie So, yeah, you're completely right. It sounds we can make it sound really simple, but actually it was such a long process because one of the key things is actually we were making these products on our Nutri Bullet just for ourselves. So to scale up and go into factories, you cannot just hand over the recipe. It doesn't work like that. It completely, you know, the taste, the texture, everything will just completely change, which we didn't realise until we started sort of researching into different kinds of manufacturers and how it worked. So we looked at various different kind of ways of doing it. At one point we were actually looking at renting a kitchen and doing the bars ourselves, which again, totally naive to think that that would have worked. But, you know, it's good to explore every kind of like every angle. So looked at that and then we realised straightaway that just wasn't possible. So then we went and started looking for factories that could replicate what we were doing at home. And for us, the key thing was quality and the taste, and we would not compromise on that. So we did find a couple of factories that made raw snackbars. We did a couple of trials with them and it was just awful. It just tasted like such a boring, horrible health bar. And that is not what we were about. We wanted to taste like a treat. And, you know, we wanted well, yeah, taste was just number one thing and quality. So, yeah, we were really disappointed, but we just kept going and kept kind of researching and then eventually found another manufacturer that it just felt like this could be it. So we went and had a meeting with them. We brought them our kitchen samples. They tried them and said, yep, we can you know, they looked at the recipe and they were like, yeah, we can do it. We'll just make a couple of tweaks. So they did a trial and we were really impressed. It was pretty much exactly what we were doing at home. So again, we made a couple of tweaks and then eventually it was like exactly what we were doing at home. So it was just such an amazing feeling for that to have kind of got, you know, we've got there in the end and then we're quite lucky because we have people that we're close to that have various different skills, one of which is Sophie's husband. So he's a designer. He works for a huge UK design agency. So he was able to design our brand, which was amazing. It meant we didn't have to get investment straight away because obviously creating a brand can cost huge amounts. So we're really lucky with that. He designed our brand. So we had all the visuals and we didn't actually press the button on production until we had secured a listing because we were just so concerned about money we didn't have. You know, we literally using our savings at this point. So there wasn't much. And so we had to be really, really careful. So, yeah, we were lucky that the factory with the trial only cost a couple of hundred pounds. And we had obviously then some bars. We had the visuals and the brand and then we just went and started approaching everyone pretty much and, yeah. And then we got into Whole Foods and Planet Organic, and again that sounds really easy. Sophie has a story with how we got the Whole Foods buyer which.
Frankie Cotton Oh yes. Sophie come on, tell us.
Sophie So then this is where naivety was on our side because we didn't have any kind of process of how we did this. So we found out who he was, emailed him through the kind of channels and yeah, just emailed and tried to call, LinkedIn as well, and just wasn't getting anything. And so I found his personal Twitter account identified an event we thought he'd be going to, which was the speciality and fine foods kind of show. And we were going to go just to see what was out there because we might do it the next year and then a Friday night, I was just at home with my parents, just scrolling, trying to think I just I'm just going to tweet him. And so I sent him a picture of two little squirrels. I just typed in two cute squirrels, found an image and sent it to him saying, you going to the show tomorrow? And he replied, And we could not believe it. So anyway through the means of Twitter, we then arranged a meeting outside, we literally found him again through Twitter saying, we're outside where are you? And just literally had our phones, showed him the visuals, Gracie, I rang her straightaway. She started making some kitchen samples for him and just kind of walked and talked, gave him the samples. And then two weeks later, we had an email saying that we were in. So we obviously had to send like commercials and things like that. But luckily, because we were so, we knew the product inside out. We had an answer for everything. We could tell him everything he wanted to hear. And he loved the branding. He loved the idea. And he could see that it was something a bit different as well. So, yeah, he gave us a chance. And we're, yeah. We're now one of the top three growing snacks year-on-year with Whole Foods, which if you can imagine how many snacks they have, that's a pretty big achievement. And, you know, we just still absolutely love, love that store. So, yeah, it's a brilliant first launch.
Frankie Cotton That's such a great story. And I love things like that. And as you were talking, I was thinking, gosh, I really miss the days of events. And doing things face to face. Oh, gosh. But yeah, what a great story. And then in terms of sort of scaling up into other stockists, what did that look like?
Sophie So we had kind of dream list and then other things came along which weren't expected, you know, some random export opportunities that people had found us in Whole Foods. Yeah, we just kept going and going. And because we launched with a factory we knew that they could always scale up. So from that perspective, it was actually it was really easy to scale up. We just put in a higher, higher order. So, yeah, that's kind of how we did it. And everything took a lot longer than we thought. We were like, you know, we'll be in Waitrose by Christmas, basically saved up, you know, pay us back our savings – definitely not the case, but yeah. So, yeah, we just kept going basically and just kept trying to reach out to those people. And Gracie, looks after all the PR so was talking to lots of journalists about the product. And so we had so many features, people were really excited by it all. So yeah, it's just kind of got better and better each year. And we've just kept that passion that we know our product is a really good one and that people love it and we just feel like we can't let our loyal following down. You know, it's hard, but we've got to just keep going and keep pushing.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. Well and Gracie, maybe you can speak to this, but you're saying there about being one of the top three largest growing brands for Whole Foods. And just generally when you think of the health food market, it seems like it's still such a growing market. You know, there's always new products coming out. And I just wonder how you maintain really your values around flavour and taste and quality, but also really stand out on the shelf and really kind of capture the attention of consumers.
Gracie Yeah, so I think I think well, like you say, you know, it's such a huge category now. And going into something like Whole Foods, you can be quite overwhelmed, especially like in the bar section with how many options that are. But with us, I think we've just really stayed true to what we're about. And we haven't compromised. We haven't kind of rushed anything. Yes, we've the actual range quite small and really kind of pushed our core range and just tried to grow that across the whole of the UK. And now we're at a stage where we are about to launch new products, but it has taken us a while to get there. We're just not willing to launch anything that we don't love. And I think because we've kept the business quite lean, you know, it's just the two of us. And now we are working with Wilfred Emmanuel-Jones, but he's, has his own small business that he totally gets and understands that, you know, for us, we have to stick to what we're about and we're not willing to to compromise.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. So it certainly sounds like an ongoing process, but sticking really just true to your core values. And as you say, you've been careful about how and when you scale. And I wonder. So there was a time not so long ago when you guys were looking at possibly doing some crowdfunding. And I know it didn't quite go to plan. And I wonder if you could talk a bit about that time and what was going on and what your experience was.
Gracie Yes, I can start with that and Sophie can kind of lead on. Yes. So, you know, we have just been a team of two. We've had various people join us part-time or, you know, on a freelance kind of basis. But we did get to a stage where we just felt quite frustrated that, you know, everything was great, but we really wanted to grow a little bit quicker. And so we did think about how we're going to do this. So we approached a lot of founders of companies that we really admired and that they got to such a kind of high level that they were kind of taken a step back from the business and it was sort of investing in small businesses. So we had several meetings and it just I just couldn't find anything quite clicked. And so we thought, why not try crowdfunding? You know, it's a good opportunity for brand awareness as well. You've then got sort of a community of people that support your brand, that, you know, are your cheerleader's, I suppose. So we went down that route, but pretty quickly decided it didn't feel right. You know, we had the video ready. We had all the paperwork on the site. And then before you could everyone could see the actual crowdfunding page. But we hadn't gone live. And we were also quite ill-advised on the process. We were told that we didn't need to get investors in advance. So we were just like, great, we'll just go ahead and launch it and get, you know, half a million pounds in the first week. How hard can it be? But yeah, what we didn't realise is for crowdfunding, you really need to have investors lined up beforehand because you need to be, I think, at 20 or 30 percent before you can go live, which we weren't aware of, unfortunately. So it didn't happen. However, we through that we got a couple of articles about the crowdfunding in The Grocer and some investors read about it and they reached out to us. So we thought, let's take the crowdfunding off and we're going to go down the private routes. So and yet we kind of we had three investors that were interested. We got one offer from one company and then another company came in. And this is where the sort of the, I suppose, shock story. But, yeah, we, well Sophie do you want to kind of jump in here and say your experience, because this is very much about you.
Sophie Yeah. So. Yeah, we had an offer from three companies, in the end, we decided to pursue this one company, so we're going to be able to kind of take on a lot of the other functions that we were looking for, like supply chain and down the line, things like H.R. and legal. So it seemed like a perfect fit. They'd look after all our manufacturing, we'd get to do you know, all of the fun, the funniest bits of having your own brand, and so we were in still quite early talks, but yeah, thought they're the ones and then I found out I was pregnant. So I was only about eight weeks pregnant. But our dad, he had his own business, so he was really helping us. And he said, look, I know it's early, but let's just tell them. And they were working with a consultant and I first told him. And he was amazing, he was like, this is brilliant news, you know, where you know gone are the days where people think that, you know, women can't have it all. And things like that, so anyway I was really positive about that conversation. A couple of weeks later, I said oh have you told the head guy and he said, oh, do you want me to? And I was like, yes, please. Then I got an email saying, Oh, I hear congratulations are in order. Not great timing. But hopefully things will be OK, and then I had gotten a call with him and he was like he basically asked me if I'd done it on purpose, bearing in mind we were in pretty early stages of our discussions with them. Like, I don't think I'm going to base quite a large life decision.
Frankie Cotton I think I mean, there are so many things that are wrong with that question. Did you do this on purpose. Oh, yeah. Because I can just decide whenever I want to get pregnant to the week. I mean, and for so many reasons that's outrageous. But yeah, sorry do carry on.
Sophie I just felt I mean, it was obviously I hadn't planned it around that at all. You know, I, I didn't know that it was going to happen that quickly. And it just made me really upset that I was pregnant, to be honest. And I just felt like. You know, I didn't really want anything to happen or go wrong. I just felt like I didn't want to think about it or talk about it. And then we got a bit further down the line. More jokes were made in a very final meeting that was going over the shareholder agreement that there should be a clause in case I went off the rails as a mother. So I don't know if he was implying that if I had postnatal depression, like so many women do these days, you know, that they would get their money back. But it just felt like I couldn't actually let me that we were both shocked. Yeah. And what was really frustrating was that on paper this deal was a dream. Like we even look back now, like that was a dream deal. But we had to walk away and we were literally a week away, you know, that week we needed to sign. And we were both so stressed out, we were like, no, it's a good deal. It'll be fine. We need it because I'm having the baby. So we need that support. And then I was walking near where I live to the office and bumped into Holly Tucker, who is the founder of Not on the High Street, who lives just around the corner and has this podcast. And I was like listening to all the podcasts, trying to get all the advice. And I saw her and I said, oh, you're Holly. And then anyway, she just asked about our business. And I told her very briefly and she was like, you've got to trust your gut. And even though we know that we should, it was just a really good on paper that we just thought surely it will be OK. And we decided, that kind of pushed us and thought, no, it's really not right. And then we got new flavours listed, well we said no, then carried on. We had an amazing girl join us for a while. So she really helped out when I was very early days with Lola and obviously Gracie can handle it all. So, yeah, we just did it without anything and we just and it did really well. We yeah, we got an extended number of stores in Waitrose. We got products that went from online, in-store with Holland and Barrett. We launched two new flavours. And so they were saying all this and we knew they were which was really satisfying and and then. Yeah. And then it got to towards the end of the year and we started thinking, OK, now we're ready to start looking again for investment, and we felt, OK, what we really need is experience. And I think the idea of investment for us was that all these other small companies just always say, oh, you need investment to grow. And we'd just taken that. And we met Wilfred and he said, you do not need investment. You just need to get your business organised and you can do this yourselves without investment. And I'd love to help you. And we were like no we definitely need investment. So just carried on. And then a couple of months later, we carried on without and we thought maybe he's right. So we got back in touch and started working together really quickly. And he's come on board as an adviser and to help us fund projects. But it's, he's it's not like that investor relationship at all. So when things go wrong, we can be so honest. We're not trying to fluff things up and present on a monthly basis, the figures or anything like that. It's just that kind of get stuck in.
Gracie I think actually, going back to the guys that obviously the deal we pulled out of after everything he sort of said about Sophie, I think what we realised is, you know, that typical sort of image you get of an investor that's what we thought we needed. You know, the suit the grey hair, you know, we thought of someone like that's really going to help us. But actually just getting money isn't that helpful because you're going to spend it. But actually, this is where Wilfred came in and really kind of made us realise that, because I think really what we realised we needed is someone that can guide us and support us and understand small businesses, because these really big investors, they don't actually care. And because we care so much about our product, you know, it's our passion. We we want to prove that healthy can be delicious. And you don't have to add all these bad ingredients and a big investor does not care about that. And, you know, in one meeting we had with him in the process before we signed, you know, he we said, you know, unfortunately, this has happened with one of the retailers. We actually one of our flavours had been delisted, which is fine. That happens. You know, at first we get really upset about that sort of thing and then we realised that's just that's so normal. And then you find a solution. You maybe bring out a different flavour or a product that suits the shelf better. But he just went 'oh I've stopped listening'. And then we were, it was honestly like speaking to a child and he just couldn't understand how, you know, it's so changeable. You know, every day it can be different for small business and so with Wilfred, what was so refreshing is because he has his own business, he completely understands that it's so up and down. And, you know, one day you might lose a retailer. The next day you might get a thousand Sainsbury's stores. Yeah, we're just so glad that, you know, that that happened, even though it's not very nice, it was really horrible to be spoken to like that for Sophie and really kind of made to feel that, you know, awful about being pregnant. And, you know, she was like, oh, God, you know, like she doubted herself for a man to make a woman feel like that is just not OK. And it was just yeah. We were just absolutely no way could we work with someone like that, especially when we are all about, you know, empowering women and. Yeah. And kind of inspiring them. And yeah. We just would like that's just so not us. So, yeah. We're so lucky to have met Wilfred and it took five years to find someone that fitted our business. But yeah, now it's just it feels just so right and like we're both. Yeah. It's just, it's so good. So I just don't, the advice I would say is like never rush the investment process like really take your time, look at different avenues and you know, don't just go with what you think the typical investor is because yeah, money is just money. And at the end of the day, I think businesses need more than just the cash injection. So, for us, having someone with the expertise is just what we needed.
Sophie And his reaction to me being pregnant this time, just to give a complete difference. So I had to tell him early because like we were having these photos. And I was just a bit self-conscious, I said by the way I'm pregnant. And he said, OK, well, just address that you know, I was talking about how I looked and said, OK, well, don't worry, blah blah blah. And then you said so, you know, tell me that was it planned? And I was like, well, not really. And he said, well, you know, basically the world, this would this wouldn't have happened if you couldn't handle it. So just you will be fine. And it was just like, oh, like it was I couldn't believe the reaction. I've spoken to him about it since because I've struggled with this one a bit more like just the idea of having two is quite full on. And he's just been so unbelievably supportive. It's a complete different it's amazing!
Frankie Cotton Yeah, I mean, hearing your story and unfortunately it's not uncommon. I've interviewed other, you know, founders for this very podcast who have been in the same position and who have had dreadful experiences with investors when they've been pregnant. And. Yeah, and it's I mean, it's shocking that it still goes on. And I'm also not surprised. But what I'm glad about your story and also, you know, others that I've interviewed is that you stuck to your guns and that is the start of a sea change, I think, you know, and and for both of those investments that you were looking at, both the crowdfund and then going with that partner both times, you'd got really, really far right. Right to the point to sort of sign or go live and and you still listen to your gut. And I think that that is that's a really, really great lesson, that even after, you know, you didn't take the crowdfund and then you found the next route is that you still didn't think we've got this far, we've got to do something. And you still took that space and thought about it really deeply from a values perspective, I think is. Yeah, it's a super story. It's really interesting.
Gracie Oh, thank you. And I think as well, like something Sophie sort of said at the time is actually I just don't understand why these men and I know it happens with women as well they can, you know, have judgement on and people getting pregnant. And but actually, it gives you a huge motivation to succeed even more. You know, you're not just doing it for yourself. You're doing it for your child. So, yeah, I think it was a total mistake on their part that. Yeah, a complete blessing in disguise on ours because it taught us so much. And yeah, it just made us realise that trusting your gut and sticking to your values and not letting anyone, you know, make you feel unworthy. So yeah, absolutely. Like we're really proud of that time and really proud that we walked away.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And you should be. And I wonder, so you've both sort of alluded to it that you've got new products and things coming out. And I just want to know, really, what does the future look like for you guys and for Squirrel Sisters?
Sophie Well I suppose we want to be, you know, we always wanted to be like a big brand, but really stay true to our values. And now we've got Wilfred on board we know that we can you know, we know we can grow and stick to that. So I would say our dream is to be like the number one snacking brand with no added sugar and like the only one still, I think it's quite hard for people to do. Well it is quite hard to do, we know how hard it is to do so. Because we've got that massive drive and our story behind it we know we'll always stick to that. And that's what we want to be famous for and just make it possible for other people to have the same thing that we wanted, which we know a lot of people really do.
Gracie We do really want to take the business to the next level. And, you know, we're looking at exporting as well. So actually during lockdown, we've had so many enquiries come to us. So that's really exciting. And we've had some pretty major orders from Dubai, Kuwait, Sweden and Germany. So, yeah, it's really exciting. And obviously we've got our new product launching this week. So that's also really exciting. And we've done something a little bit different this time with our packaging, which you'll see, so we're trying to really, um, I guess, bring our story into the packaging a little bit more and bring the sisterhood to the front of our packaging. So, yeah, all will be revealed very soon if you haven't already seen it.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. Well by the time this podcast comes out, your mystery new product will be on sale. So I look forward to going and tucking in.
Gracie Amazing. We'll have to send you some.
Frankie Cotton Oh well that would be amazing but thank you and I'd love to just really I mean first of all, thank you so much for everything that you shared. You know, you've been really generous with, you know, your story and telling us what happened. And I think that that's just so helpful for anyone who is starting a business and is going through this process starting or scaling. You know, it's there are challenges at every level and they can be really tricky to navigate. And I just want to give you both the opportunity, really. Is there anything else that you want to share with the listeners that you want to leave us on, perhaps something that you've learnt along the way or something we've not mentioned?
Gracie Sophie do you want to start?
Sophie Um, I guess. I think a lot of people are really scared of starting their own business, and now that we've got our own business, I do get why it is really hard. But I think if you have an idea that you can't stop thinking about, then the likelihood is that loads of other people will believe in you. And I think just start getting out there and see how it goes. We tested our idea or our branding idea through a blog, and that's where we learnt that we were going to kind of get traction and I think we both just even when we felt like giving up, which we have, you know, I think everyone who has our own business feels like that at times. There's just, you know, that will be something in you that will keep you going because you want to get you want to be able to provide whatever you're doing or what your idea is to other people. So just go for it and don't be scared of failing. I know that's easy to say but yeah, that would be my advice to anyone with a small business or who is thinking of starting one.
Gracie Yeah. And I would say a couple of things actually I was thinking about this week is don't be scared to put yourself out there. I think Sophie in, you know, in terms of if you want to sort of be the face of your product or promoter of your product, you know, like I think we were so conscious of what people thought of us, and especially with social media, we kind of overanalyze every post and think, oh, God, what someone's going to think, what's the reaction? And we've got to a point now, obviously five years we've grown in confidence, but we have got to a point now where we're like do you know what we want to post that or we want to say that or, you know, we just, it doesn't matter what people think. If they're thinking something, if they're judging, that's a reflection of themselves. So, yeah, just don't be afraid to kind of put yourself out there. And then my absolute number one thing, which we've mentioned throughout this podcast, is trust your gut, I think. Yeah, if you've got a feeling about something, then it's there for a reason. And yeah, just trust it! Frankie Cotton Wise words all around there I think so, yeah. Thank you, Gracie. Sophie, thank you so much. And Sophie, congratulations again on baby number two.
Sophie Thank you.
Gracie Thank you so much for having us on it's been so nice to talk to you.
Sophie Yes, thank you it's been a great chat.
Frankie Cotton Thank you.
Frankie Cotton Gracie and Sophie, welcome to Women On Top.
Gracie & Sophie Tyrrell Thank you. Hi. Hello. Thank you for having us.
Frankie Cotton It's a pleasure. So before we get started, I just kind of want to ask you really, how are you in these weird times, which I'm almost bored of hearing myself say.
Sophie Yeah, great, you can go first Gracie.
Gracie Yeah. No, I mean, it's definitely we've had our ups and downs. It's been pretty crazy, but actually we are OK. And yeah, at this point, we've kind of realised how lucky we are to be working with each other because I think it's just having each other to kind of bounce off and have these days where we're just like, oh, God, can't deal with this anymore. And then one of us is always in a better mood than the other one. So, you know, whoever is feeling a little bit lower can get lifted up. So, yeah, it's been tough. But I think, you know, in terms of the business, we at the start were pretty kind of nervous. But then we just thought we've got nothing to lose, let's just put everything into it. And we've ended up creating a whole new range of products and we're launching them this week, actually. So we've definitely turned it around and kind of really pushed ourselves to make the most of this opportunity, which I guess is, a lot of people are saying is an opportunity of time.
Sophie Yeah, I think we found it like at the beginning, we were just like, well, there's nothing we can do. So let's just try. And, you know, Grace just said, make the most of it. And for me, I've got a little girl. So it was nice to actually have some time to get to, like, legitimately spend with her and say, OK, well, you can't be rushing around doing a million things, but it has been tough and, you know, not seeing family and all the personal side of things has been really hard, and now I think everyone's just feeling a bit down because we don't know what's going on. But we've got these new products coming out. We're working with a really exciting guy called Wilfred who we'll talk about later, I'm sure. So there are some really positive things happening for us. And I'm pregnant again. So lockdown, baby.
Frankie Cotton Congratulations.
Sophie I'm actually sometimes not that fine, but nothing to do with the situation, I'm just tired.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. Well, that's great news. Congratulations.
Sophie Thank you.
Frankie Cotton So I'd like to begin actually right at the beginning of the story for Squirrel Sisters. Where did it all begin for you both?
Sophie So I'll start with this because it started with a routine health check that I had through my job at the time. So everyone was going in, coming back, saying, oh, I eat too much cheese, I drink too much alcohol. I came out with a diagnosed heart condition. So it was something I've been living with my whole life. I had no idea. Now I look back and since the operation and being much better, I realised it really was affecting me. But I didn't know at the time because I just thought that was normal. And so they found out I had something called Wolf Parkinson's White. And essentially what it means is that your heart can just stop so you can drop dead at any time. So it's pretty scary, given that I was trying to do all sorts of, you know, what it's like working in London. It's a busy, early 20s, going out a lot with friends, trying to do various random challenges like the Three Peaks and London to Paris cycle. So I was really pushing myself. So I was very lucky to find out when I did and got operated on quite quickly or like pushed to the front of the queue and had quite a bad experience with my operation. And so it was keyhole surgery, but I just had such a terrible reaction to all the chemicals they pump through you. They do a lot of testing while they are operating and I was not prepared for it at all. So, emotionally and physically, it just completely threw me and I got really, really ill. But the saving grace literally didn't actually mean to say it like that. It was my sister Gracie.
Gracie Quite a good little pun there
Sophie So we were living together in Balham and Gracie was working from home quite a lot cause she was in film and TV. So in between jobs she was around and really massively helped me with looking after me. She was cooking all my meals and that was like the biggest kind of thing that helped me because I found I was, I just became, I suppose it was like an allergic reaction in some ways to quite normal foods, like sugar was the biggest one and then gluten and a few other random things. But sugar for me was just an absolute killer, like I would have say, some ketchup, which has only a small amount of sugar when you think about how much you're eating of it. And I would just have, you know, just wipe me out for days. I would have really about IBS symptoms, but then it would just make me feel really flu like and terrible, so I completely cut it out but then felt really down and generally the situation was quite, you know, rubbish. So not being able to eat foods that made me feel good and have those comforts because obviously wasn't drinking and things like that, so something like food – and Gracie and I have always loved food and and so it was a real kick that I couldn't just eat what I wanted and it was stressing me out. So Gracie made it her mission to first of all, scour every aisle possible, couldn't find anything that was actually really tasty, that had no added sugar. So she started experimenting herself and she came up with these amazing brownie recipes that was eventually with our first product. So that is that's where it all kind of came from.
Frankie Cotton Gosh. And that sounds I mean, you shared with us is there in a couple of minutes all of that time. But that must have been a really, really tough time for you. Like you say so early on in your 20s and sort of completely unexpected. And having the support of your sister, I mean, Gracie, what was it like sort of from your perspective? It must have been tough seeing Sophie go through that, I imagine.
Gracie Yeah, definitely. I mean, we're so close. So I think whenever one of us feels crap, we really kind of feel the other one's pain. So it was definitely really awful to see Sophie like that. And yeah, obviously with the flexibility of my job at the time, it was great because it really made me feel good to be able to help but say I just loved being able to kind of help her and make her feel better through delicious food.
Frankie Cotton Well, it's true. And what you're saying is so right. And I think that probably a lot of us have experienced that, you know, this year is that, you know, small pleasures and the pleasure of really just delicious food when when you can't go out there, there's so many things you can't do. It really does make a big difference.
Gracie Definitely. Definitely. And I think, like, we've always had that kind of mindset about food. You know, it's good food, good mood. And yeah, I think, you know, just being able to create really healthy dishes and also the bars came about as well through that. But yeah, just kind of really, really yummy things that most importantly tasted amazing, so Sophie didn't feel like she was missing out because it was such a dramatic change for her and yeah, kind of, I suppose, slightly cold turkey and a completely cutting sugar and gluten. So, yeah, it was it was a really difficult time. But yeah, it was really great to be able to help and make her feel better. And it's what ended up making us create these bars. And then, yeah, eventually we saw an opportunity to turn the bars into a business and launch them as a product later down. This is in a way later down the line though. At the time, it was never a business idea. It was very much just for ourselves.
Frankie Cotton And I wonder at the point where you sort of made that transition or it certainly became possible for you in your minds, what was that time like? What happened that made you guys think actually, you know, maybe this could be a business, maybe there's something in this?
Sophie I think it was definitely the right time. I mean, way before my operation, we'd, like, explored the idea of working together or starting something, but it just wasn't the right time.
Sophie And after I had the operation and I actually had to have a second operation because the first didn't work, but because I'd changed my lifestyle so much, my recovery was so much quicker. And I decided to move to Singapore to be with my boyfriend at the time. Well, I say at the time, he's my husband now.
Frankie Cotton It's a happy ending.
Sophie So we were both kind of just really wanting to be able to do something in food that works in line with what we were already doing. So we started a blog together. So from other sides of the world, we were sharing our recipes and little things. Our things always about living kind of a good life is possible in the sense that you don't have to miss out. But having that nourishment from food or feeling good, basically. So we started this blog and started getting quite an organic traction from social media without telling anyone because we just kept it a secret to begin with, aside from telling our families. And then, yeah, I kind of said I want to move home. And I was looking for jobs in like food companies. And there just didn't it didn't feel like that was anyone who really resonated with how we believed food should be. And very naively, which is a blessing. We just thought, well, let's start exploring it. You know, everyone loves these brownies that Gracie makes and everyone's always saying, oh, you guys should launch them, so we just thought what have we got to lose it's the right time, let's go for it. And maybe eight months later we were launching in Whole Foods and Planet Organic.
Frankie Cotton And again, you know, you've summarised that really well, but there's a lot there right? Making brownies for each other and for other people is very different to creating a product that can be sold and sit on a shelf. And I wonder and maybe, Gracie, you can speak to this about what that was like creating a product and going through that process?
Gracie So, yeah, you're completely right. It sounds we can make it sound really simple, but actually it was such a long process because one of the key things is actually we were making these products on our Nutri Bullet just for ourselves. So to scale up and go into factories, you cannot just hand over the recipe. It doesn't work like that. It completely, you know, the taste, the texture, everything will just completely change, which we didn't realise until we started sort of researching into different kinds of manufacturers and how it worked. So we looked at various different kind of ways of doing it. At one point we were actually looking at renting a kitchen and doing the bars ourselves, which again, totally naive to think that that would have worked. But, you know, it's good to explore every kind of like every angle. So looked at that and then we realised straightaway that just wasn't possible. So then we went and started looking for factories that could replicate what we were doing at home. And for us, the key thing was quality and the taste, and we would not compromise on that. So we did find a couple of factories that made raw snackbars. We did a couple of trials with them and it was just awful. It just tasted like such a boring, horrible health bar. And that is not what we were about. We wanted to taste like a treat. And, you know, we wanted well, yeah, taste was just number one thing and quality. So, yeah, we were really disappointed, but we just kept going and kept kind of researching and then eventually found another manufacturer that it just felt like this could be it. So we went and had a meeting with them. We brought them our kitchen samples. They tried them and said, yep, we can you know, they looked at the recipe and they were like, yeah, we can do it. We'll just make a couple of tweaks. So they did a trial and we were really impressed. It was pretty much exactly what we were doing at home. So again, we made a couple of tweaks and then eventually it was like exactly what we were doing at home. So it was just such an amazing feeling for that to have kind of got, you know, we've got there in the end and then we're quite lucky because we have people that we're close to that have various different skills, one of which is Sophie's husband. So he's a designer. He works for a huge UK design agency. So he was able to design our brand, which was amazing. It meant we didn't have to get investment straight away because obviously creating a brand can cost huge amounts. So we're really lucky with that. He designed our brand. So we had all the visuals and we didn't actually press the button on production until we had secured a listing because we were just so concerned about money we didn't have. You know, we literally using our savings at this point. So there wasn't much. And so we had to be really, really careful. So, yeah, we were lucky that the factory with the trial only cost a couple of hundred pounds. And we had obviously then some bars. We had the visuals and the brand and then we just went and started approaching everyone pretty much and, yeah. And then we got into Whole Foods and Planet Organic, and again that sounds really easy. Sophie has a story with how we got the Whole Foods buyer which.
Frankie Cotton Oh yes. Sophie come on, tell us.
Sophie So then this is where naivety was on our side because we didn't have any kind of process of how we did this. So we found out who he was, emailed him through the kind of channels and yeah, just emailed and tried to call, LinkedIn as well, and just wasn't getting anything. And so I found his personal Twitter account identified an event we thought he'd be going to, which was the speciality and fine foods kind of show. And we were going to go just to see what was out there because we might do it the next year and then a Friday night, I was just at home with my parents, just scrolling, trying to think I just I'm just going to tweet him. And so I sent him a picture of two little squirrels. I just typed in two cute squirrels, found an image and sent it to him saying, you going to the show tomorrow? And he replied, And we could not believe it. So anyway through the means of Twitter, we then arranged a meeting outside, we literally found him again through Twitter saying, we're outside where are you? And just literally had our phones, showed him the visuals, Gracie, I rang her straightaway. She started making some kitchen samples for him and just kind of walked and talked, gave him the samples. And then two weeks later, we had an email saying that we were in. So we obviously had to send like commercials and things like that. But luckily, because we were so, we knew the product inside out. We had an answer for everything. We could tell him everything he wanted to hear. And he loved the branding. He loved the idea. And he could see that it was something a bit different as well. So, yeah, he gave us a chance. And we're, yeah. We're now one of the top three growing snacks year-on-year with Whole Foods, which if you can imagine how many snacks they have, that's a pretty big achievement. And, you know, we just still absolutely love, love that store. So, yeah, it's a brilliant first launch.
Frankie Cotton That's such a great story. And I love things like that. And as you were talking, I was thinking, gosh, I really miss the days of events. And doing things face to face. Oh, gosh. But yeah, what a great story. And then in terms of sort of scaling up into other stockists, what did that look like?
Sophie So we had kind of dream list and then other things came along which weren't expected, you know, some random export opportunities that people had found us in Whole Foods. Yeah, we just kept going and going. And because we launched with a factory we knew that they could always scale up. So from that perspective, it was actually it was really easy to scale up. We just put in a higher, higher order. So, yeah, that's kind of how we did it. And everything took a lot longer than we thought. We were like, you know, we'll be in Waitrose by Christmas, basically saved up, you know, pay us back our savings – definitely not the case, but yeah. So, yeah, we just kept going basically and just kept trying to reach out to those people. And Gracie, looks after all the PR so was talking to lots of journalists about the product. And so we had so many features, people were really excited by it all. So yeah, it's just kind of got better and better each year. And we've just kept that passion that we know our product is a really good one and that people love it and we just feel like we can't let our loyal following down. You know, it's hard, but we've got to just keep going and keep pushing.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. Well and Gracie, maybe you can speak to this, but you're saying there about being one of the top three largest growing brands for Whole Foods. And just generally when you think of the health food market, it seems like it's still such a growing market. You know, there's always new products coming out. And I just wonder how you maintain really your values around flavour and taste and quality, but also really stand out on the shelf and really kind of capture the attention of consumers.
Gracie Yeah, so I think I think well, like you say, you know, it's such a huge category now. And going into something like Whole Foods, you can be quite overwhelmed, especially like in the bar section with how many options that are. But with us, I think we've just really stayed true to what we're about. And we haven't compromised. We haven't kind of rushed anything. Yes, we've the actual range quite small and really kind of pushed our core range and just tried to grow that across the whole of the UK. And now we're at a stage where we are about to launch new products, but it has taken us a while to get there. We're just not willing to launch anything that we don't love. And I think because we've kept the business quite lean, you know, it's just the two of us. And now we are working with Wilfred Emmanuel-Jones, but he's, has his own small business that he totally gets and understands that, you know, for us, we have to stick to what we're about and we're not willing to to compromise.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. So it certainly sounds like an ongoing process, but sticking really just true to your core values. And as you say, you've been careful about how and when you scale. And I wonder. So there was a time not so long ago when you guys were looking at possibly doing some crowdfunding. And I know it didn't quite go to plan. And I wonder if you could talk a bit about that time and what was going on and what your experience was.
Gracie Yes, I can start with that and Sophie can kind of lead on. Yes. So, you know, we have just been a team of two. We've had various people join us part-time or, you know, on a freelance kind of basis. But we did get to a stage where we just felt quite frustrated that, you know, everything was great, but we really wanted to grow a little bit quicker. And so we did think about how we're going to do this. So we approached a lot of founders of companies that we really admired and that they got to such a kind of high level that they were kind of taken a step back from the business and it was sort of investing in small businesses. So we had several meetings and it just I just couldn't find anything quite clicked. And so we thought, why not try crowdfunding? You know, it's a good opportunity for brand awareness as well. You've then got sort of a community of people that support your brand, that, you know, are your cheerleader's, I suppose. So we went down that route, but pretty quickly decided it didn't feel right. You know, we had the video ready. We had all the paperwork on the site. And then before you could everyone could see the actual crowdfunding page. But we hadn't gone live. And we were also quite ill-advised on the process. We were told that we didn't need to get investors in advance. So we were just like, great, we'll just go ahead and launch it and get, you know, half a million pounds in the first week. How hard can it be? But yeah, what we didn't realise is for crowdfunding, you really need to have investors lined up beforehand because you need to be, I think, at 20 or 30 percent before you can go live, which we weren't aware of, unfortunately. So it didn't happen. However, we through that we got a couple of articles about the crowdfunding in The Grocer and some investors read about it and they reached out to us. So we thought, let's take the crowdfunding off and we're going to go down the private routes. So and yet we kind of we had three investors that were interested. We got one offer from one company and then another company came in. And this is where the sort of the, I suppose, shock story. But, yeah, we, well Sophie do you want to kind of jump in here and say your experience, because this is very much about you.
Sophie Yeah. So. Yeah, we had an offer from three companies, in the end, we decided to pursue this one company, so we're going to be able to kind of take on a lot of the other functions that we were looking for, like supply chain and down the line, things like H.R. and legal. So it seemed like a perfect fit. They'd look after all our manufacturing, we'd get to do you know, all of the fun, the funniest bits of having your own brand, and so we were in still quite early talks, but yeah, thought they're the ones and then I found out I was pregnant. So I was only about eight weeks pregnant. But our dad, he had his own business, so he was really helping us. And he said, look, I know it's early, but let's just tell them. And they were working with a consultant and I first told him. And he was amazing, he was like, this is brilliant news, you know, where you know gone are the days where people think that, you know, women can't have it all. And things like that, so anyway I was really positive about that conversation. A couple of weeks later, I said oh have you told the head guy and he said, oh, do you want me to? And I was like, yes, please. Then I got an email saying, Oh, I hear congratulations are in order. Not great timing. But hopefully things will be OK, and then I had gotten a call with him and he was like he basically asked me if I'd done it on purpose, bearing in mind we were in pretty early stages of our discussions with them. Like, I don't think I'm going to base quite a large life decision.
Frankie Cotton I think I mean, there are so many things that are wrong with that question. Did you do this on purpose. Oh, yeah. Because I can just decide whenever I want to get pregnant to the week. I mean, and for so many reasons that's outrageous. But yeah, sorry do carry on.
Sophie I just felt I mean, it was obviously I hadn't planned it around that at all. You know, I, I didn't know that it was going to happen that quickly. And it just made me really upset that I was pregnant, to be honest. And I just felt like. You know, I didn't really want anything to happen or go wrong. I just felt like I didn't want to think about it or talk about it. And then we got a bit further down the line. More jokes were made in a very final meeting that was going over the shareholder agreement that there should be a clause in case I went off the rails as a mother. So I don't know if he was implying that if I had postnatal depression, like so many women do these days, you know, that they would get their money back. But it just felt like I couldn't actually let me that we were both shocked. Yeah. And what was really frustrating was that on paper this deal was a dream. Like we even look back now, like that was a dream deal. But we had to walk away and we were literally a week away, you know, that week we needed to sign. And we were both so stressed out, we were like, no, it's a good deal. It'll be fine. We need it because I'm having the baby. So we need that support. And then I was walking near where I live to the office and bumped into Holly Tucker, who is the founder of Not on the High Street, who lives just around the corner and has this podcast. And I was like listening to all the podcasts, trying to get all the advice. And I saw her and I said, oh, you're Holly. And then anyway, she just asked about our business. And I told her very briefly and she was like, you've got to trust your gut. And even though we know that we should, it was just a really good on paper that we just thought surely it will be OK. And we decided, that kind of pushed us and thought, no, it's really not right. And then we got new flavours listed, well we said no, then carried on. We had an amazing girl join us for a while. So she really helped out when I was very early days with Lola and obviously Gracie can handle it all. So, yeah, we just did it without anything and we just and it did really well. We yeah, we got an extended number of stores in Waitrose. We got products that went from online, in-store with Holland and Barrett. We launched two new flavours. And so they were saying all this and we knew they were which was really satisfying and and then. Yeah. And then it got to towards the end of the year and we started thinking, OK, now we're ready to start looking again for investment, and we felt, OK, what we really need is experience. And I think the idea of investment for us was that all these other small companies just always say, oh, you need investment to grow. And we'd just taken that. And we met Wilfred and he said, you do not need investment. You just need to get your business organised and you can do this yourselves without investment. And I'd love to help you. And we were like no we definitely need investment. So just carried on. And then a couple of months later, we carried on without and we thought maybe he's right. So we got back in touch and started working together really quickly. And he's come on board as an adviser and to help us fund projects. But it's, he's it's not like that investor relationship at all. So when things go wrong, we can be so honest. We're not trying to fluff things up and present on a monthly basis, the figures or anything like that. It's just that kind of get stuck in.
Gracie I think actually, going back to the guys that obviously the deal we pulled out of after everything he sort of said about Sophie, I think what we realised is, you know, that typical sort of image you get of an investor that's what we thought we needed. You know, the suit the grey hair, you know, we thought of someone like that's really going to help us. But actually just getting money isn't that helpful because you're going to spend it. But actually, this is where Wilfred came in and really kind of made us realise that, because I think really what we realised we needed is someone that can guide us and support us and understand small businesses, because these really big investors, they don't actually care. And because we care so much about our product, you know, it's our passion. We we want to prove that healthy can be delicious. And you don't have to add all these bad ingredients and a big investor does not care about that. And, you know, in one meeting we had with him in the process before we signed, you know, he we said, you know, unfortunately, this has happened with one of the retailers. We actually one of our flavours had been delisted, which is fine. That happens. You know, at first we get really upset about that sort of thing and then we realised that's just that's so normal. And then you find a solution. You maybe bring out a different flavour or a product that suits the shelf better. But he just went 'oh I've stopped listening'. And then we were, it was honestly like speaking to a child and he just couldn't understand how, you know, it's so changeable. You know, every day it can be different for small business and so with Wilfred, what was so refreshing is because he has his own business, he completely understands that it's so up and down. And, you know, one day you might lose a retailer. The next day you might get a thousand Sainsbury's stores. Yeah, we're just so glad that, you know, that that happened, even though it's not very nice, it was really horrible to be spoken to like that for Sophie and really kind of made to feel that, you know, awful about being pregnant. And, you know, she was like, oh, God, you know, like she doubted herself for a man to make a woman feel like that is just not OK. And it was just yeah. We were just absolutely no way could we work with someone like that, especially when we are all about, you know, empowering women and. Yeah. And kind of inspiring them. And yeah. We just would like that's just so not us. So, yeah. We're so lucky to have met Wilfred and it took five years to find someone that fitted our business. But yeah, now it's just it feels just so right and like we're both. Yeah. It's just, it's so good. So I just don't, the advice I would say is like never rush the investment process like really take your time, look at different avenues and you know, don't just go with what you think the typical investor is because yeah, money is just money. And at the end of the day, I think businesses need more than just the cash injection. So, for us, having someone with the expertise is just what we needed.
Sophie And his reaction to me being pregnant this time, just to give a complete difference. So I had to tell him early because like we were having these photos. And I was just a bit self-conscious, I said by the way I'm pregnant. And he said, OK, well, just address that you know, I was talking about how I looked and said, OK, well, don't worry, blah blah blah. And then you said so, you know, tell me that was it planned? And I was like, well, not really. And he said, well, you know, basically the world, this would this wouldn't have happened if you couldn't handle it. So just you will be fine. And it was just like, oh, like it was I couldn't believe the reaction. I've spoken to him about it since because I've struggled with this one a bit more like just the idea of having two is quite full on. And he's just been so unbelievably supportive. It's a complete different it's amazing!
Frankie Cotton Yeah, I mean, hearing your story and unfortunately it's not uncommon. I've interviewed other, you know, founders for this very podcast who have been in the same position and who have had dreadful experiences with investors when they've been pregnant. And. Yeah, and it's I mean, it's shocking that it still goes on. And I'm also not surprised. But what I'm glad about your story and also, you know, others that I've interviewed is that you stuck to your guns and that is the start of a sea change, I think, you know, and and for both of those investments that you were looking at, both the crowdfund and then going with that partner both times, you'd got really, really far right. Right to the point to sort of sign or go live and and you still listen to your gut. And I think that that is that's a really, really great lesson, that even after, you know, you didn't take the crowdfund and then you found the next route is that you still didn't think we've got this far, we've got to do something. And you still took that space and thought about it really deeply from a values perspective, I think is. Yeah, it's a super story. It's really interesting.
Gracie Oh, thank you. And I think as well, like something Sophie sort of said at the time is actually I just don't understand why these men and I know it happens with women as well they can, you know, have judgement on and people getting pregnant. And but actually, it gives you a huge motivation to succeed even more. You know, you're not just doing it for yourself. You're doing it for your child. So, yeah, I think it was a total mistake on their part that. Yeah, a complete blessing in disguise on ours because it taught us so much. And yeah, it just made us realise that trusting your gut and sticking to your values and not letting anyone, you know, make you feel unworthy. So yeah, absolutely. Like we're really proud of that time and really proud that we walked away.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And you should be. And I wonder, so you've both sort of alluded to it that you've got new products and things coming out. And I just want to know, really, what does the future look like for you guys and for Squirrel Sisters?
Sophie Well I suppose we want to be, you know, we always wanted to be like a big brand, but really stay true to our values. And now we've got Wilfred on board we know that we can you know, we know we can grow and stick to that. So I would say our dream is to be like the number one snacking brand with no added sugar and like the only one still, I think it's quite hard for people to do. Well it is quite hard to do, we know how hard it is to do so. Because we've got that massive drive and our story behind it we know we'll always stick to that. And that's what we want to be famous for and just make it possible for other people to have the same thing that we wanted, which we know a lot of people really do.
Gracie We do really want to take the business to the next level. And, you know, we're looking at exporting as well. So actually during lockdown, we've had so many enquiries come to us. So that's really exciting. And we've had some pretty major orders from Dubai, Kuwait, Sweden and Germany. So, yeah, it's really exciting. And obviously we've got our new product launching this week. So that's also really exciting. And we've done something a little bit different this time with our packaging, which you'll see, so we're trying to really, um, I guess, bring our story into the packaging a little bit more and bring the sisterhood to the front of our packaging. So, yeah, all will be revealed very soon if you haven't already seen it.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. Well by the time this podcast comes out, your mystery new product will be on sale. So I look forward to going and tucking in.
Gracie Amazing. We'll have to send you some.
Frankie Cotton Oh well that would be amazing but thank you and I'd love to just really I mean first of all, thank you so much for everything that you shared. You know, you've been really generous with, you know, your story and telling us what happened. And I think that that's just so helpful for anyone who is starting a business and is going through this process starting or scaling. You know, it's there are challenges at every level and they can be really tricky to navigate. And I just want to give you both the opportunity, really. Is there anything else that you want to share with the listeners that you want to leave us on, perhaps something that you've learnt along the way or something we've not mentioned?
Gracie Sophie do you want to start?
Sophie Um, I guess. I think a lot of people are really scared of starting their own business, and now that we've got our own business, I do get why it is really hard. But I think if you have an idea that you can't stop thinking about, then the likelihood is that loads of other people will believe in you. And I think just start getting out there and see how it goes. We tested our idea or our branding idea through a blog, and that's where we learnt that we were going to kind of get traction and I think we both just even when we felt like giving up, which we have, you know, I think everyone who has our own business feels like that at times. There's just, you know, that will be something in you that will keep you going because you want to get you want to be able to provide whatever you're doing or what your idea is to other people. So just go for it and don't be scared of failing. I know that's easy to say but yeah, that would be my advice to anyone with a small business or who is thinking of starting one.
Gracie Yeah. And I would say a couple of things actually I was thinking about this week is don't be scared to put yourself out there. I think Sophie in, you know, in terms of if you want to sort of be the face of your product or promoter of your product, you know, like I think we were so conscious of what people thought of us, and especially with social media, we kind of overanalyze every post and think, oh, God, what someone's going to think, what's the reaction? And we've got to a point now, obviously five years we've grown in confidence, but we have got to a point now where we're like do you know what we want to post that or we want to say that or, you know, we just, it doesn't matter what people think. If they're thinking something, if they're judging, that's a reflection of themselves. So, yeah, just don't be afraid to kind of put yourself out there. And then my absolute number one thing, which we've mentioned throughout this podcast, is trust your gut, I think. Yeah, if you've got a feeling about something, then it's there for a reason. And yeah, just trust it! Frankie Cotton Wise words all around there I think so, yeah. Thank you, Gracie. Sophie, thank you so much. And Sophie, congratulations again on baby number two.
Sophie Thank you.
Gracie Thank you so much for having us on it's been so nice to talk to you.
Sophie Yes, thank you it's been a great chat.
Frankie Cotton Thank you.
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