Anti-Racism, Microaggressions and Iconic Women of Colour
Episode 54
My guest today is the author of ‘Iconic Women of Colour’ and ‘How to Be Perfectly Imperfect’, Candi Williams. Candi and I connected back in June of this year amidst the height of the Black Lives Matter protests in the US and around the world. On that day Candi said to me “empathy is overwhelming and doesn’t help us to move forward. We need to move with our heads and our hearts”.
By unfortunate coincidence, we recorded this podcast episode two months later and the day after the news of Jacob Blake’s shooting in Wisconsin, USA.
In this episode, Candi reflects on the past few months and the response of businesses and their leaders beyond the anti-racism statements. Tackling the macro, the systemic racism, means tackling the micro, the small daily interactions between colleagues, supply chains and customers. Candi generously shares her insights on racist microaggressions and how we can tackle them in our workplaces and beyond, and begin to untangle and bring into the light the systemic racism that is woven into the fabric of our industries, workplaces and everyday lives.
This conversation was recorded on 24th August 2020. I hope you enjoy listening!
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Episode Resources:
Iconic Women of Colour - https://summersdale.com/sd-book/iconic-women-of-colour/
How to Be Perfectly Imperfect - https://www.waterstones.com/book/how-to-be-perfectly-imperfect/candi-williams/9781787832343
Connect with Candi Williams:
Connect with your host Frankie Cotton:
This episode was sound edited by Beth Davison https://www.bethdavison.com/. Women On Top is a Let’s Be Frank production. https://letsbefrank.co
Episode Transcript
Frankie Cotton Candi, welcome to Women on Top.
Candi Williams Hello.
Frankie Cotton Firstly, how are you?
Candi Williams Yeah, I'm okay. I'm not too bad. I'm feeling pretty saddened today by recent events with Jacob Blake. But yeah, I am okay. Otherwise.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. Because obviously, you and I, the last time we spoke was around Black Lives Matter. And I think there was this real feeling and perhaps I'm being naive, but a real sort of hopefulness that came in sort of June time around Black Lives Matter. And I just, I was going to ask you, have you been encouraged or perhaps disappointed with how things and conversations have sort of moved since then?
Candi Williams Yeah, I think so. I think that there was some really positive conversations at the time. I feel like the actions since then are slow, in a way, and I think that yesterday seeing events in America kind of made me feel like we have not made anywhere near as much progress as we might have hoped. Given that we're still seeing, yes, scenes that we've recently seen and I think, you know, the age old thing is that "that's America". But I think if we all looked closely at the U.K., I'm not sure we've made any progress there either, but yeah, it's a long game, I suppose.
Frankie Cotton And in terms of, so you're an author as well as you have your full time day job as a Content Design Manager. And in terms of those two worlds, have you seen sort of positive steps to address the systemic racism? And are you seeing that in those environments? And actually can... Have you seen a difference between the two in terms of your corporate side and the more creative side of being an author?
Candi Williams Good question. Yes, there's been conversations in both, and they're both important conversations to have, right. So, you know, we would be lying if we sat and said that the corporate world is great in terms of equality and diversity and equally, you know, the publishing world is the same in many ways. If you look at, you know, the amount of black authors, etc, etc.. So progress wise, I've been really fortunate that my publisher, Summersdale Publishing, has been doing quite a bit of what to address that and we should hopefully be able to announce some exciting things soon. But I think the nature of their work anyway they've always thought about diversity of the voices and authors that they work with and the stories that they tell.
Candi Williams So, you know, my book, Iconic Women of Colour. They've got a gay icons book and you know, lots and lots of great materials. So that's positive. I think in the corporate world, we've got more to do. But I'm really lucky that I've been able to work with our ethnicity network. You know, really kind of trying to accelerate some of this change. Yeah. Working with our senior leaders to look at, you know, where can we do better? What more can we do? Which is, which is great. So, you know, it is positive steps for sure. I think it's just a case of really keeping that momentum going and turning some of the conversations into action.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, absolutely. So I wonder if you could start by telling us how your first book, Iconic Women of Colour, how that came about.
Candi Williams Yeah, sure. So it was actually really random. So I received a message quite out of the blue from someone saying they liked my writing style and they were looking to publish a book about iconic women of colour. Would I be interested? And my response was, obviously, I've never written a book before! I have no idea how to write a book! And they were like, we'll send us over asample piece, essentially. So I did a sample piece on Maya Angelou and it kind of went from there. They were happy with it. They were really, really supportive of my tone and my writing style and how I'd kind of positioned the book, because it is hard telling the stories of amazing, amazing women, in you know, like 500 odd words. They were really, really encouraging of style, tone, structure. So that was really, really helpful. I was very lucky there. And it literally just went from there. I was really keen to tell stories of women throughout history, but also women that are doing amazing things today, so yeah, Winnie Harlow, Chidera Eggerue, with various women in there. And that was great. So they're really, really supportive of that. There's not just huge names and the stories that everyone knows, there's some kind of unsung heroes, if you will. So, yeah, it was it was a really nice collaborative process for sure.
Frankie Cotton Well, you've made it sound like it was really simple and straightforward and almost lucky. But I never feel like it's as simple as that! I wonder with Iconic Women of Colour, who did you... who from the book did you enjoy writing about the most? And I know it must have been difficult to, as you say, put amazing figures into just sort of four or five hundred words. But yeah. Would you say you enjoyed writing about the most?
Candi Williams Without being cliche, I was massively, massively surprised by Rosa Parks. And I think if you say Rosa Parks, we all think "bus, no, movement", you know. But actually, there was so much more to it before that. And she talks about how people said, you know, "you're such a hero for what you've done". And she's like, "no, I was just tired". Like, I was just tired after living a life of oppression, essentially. And, you know, she was on the way back from work. She had a really long day. And, you know, it was just the final straw. But she was a real activist for her whole life up until then. She was an absolutely amazing woman.
Candi Williams Another person is Ruby Bridges, like a hundred and ten percent. So she was the first black person to go to a really white segregated school in her area. And there were photos of it recently. And people turned up with black Voodoo dolls, parents turned out with black Voodoo dolls. She couldn't eat her lunch for months because people were threatening to poison it, just saying the most horrendous words. All of the teachers refused to teach her apart from one, this one amazing teacher, she just sat in the lessons on her own and parents basically took their kids out of lessons. And this went on for months and months. And it was interesting because it was really hard to get into her school. They basically made the exams near impossible for Black people so they, almost no one passed because it was like, she was, what, five or six and it was just this wild exam. And she passed and they almost didn't know what to do. And her mom and dad actually kind of were really discussing how safe it was to send her. But, you know, they agreed. Like you know, she's got in and she deserves to go. Absolutely. And then it was just this, you know, this huge, huge ordeal. But I remember there were some quotes from some of the military officers that took her in. And they were like, you know, she marched in there like an absolute champion. And, you know, and if you look at the pictures of her. How frightening would it be, even as an adult? She says that she thought it was a Mardi Gras festival or something because there was so many people swarming around that as she came down there was so much noise. She was like, oh it seems like a carnival or a festival. It was actually like parents and people that were so incensed by a tiny, you know, girl going to school because of the colour of skin. And you know this in our lifetime. This was like what? It was like 50 years ago. That's not exact. But it wasn't long ago. And that's why it's shocking, right? But what an inspiration. What an inspirational. She went back to school every day, you know, knowing that she was in danger. And it was frightening. People literally stabbing Voodoo dolls, black Voodoo dolls, in little you know, tombstones. It's horrific. But, yeah, the strength and the courage. And I think for her family as well, because it is horrendous to see that of your child, but also to not really be able to act on it because you're also oppressed. So you just really, really difficult. So that was another amazing, amazing story. But yeah, I could go on there was so so many amazing women.
Frankie Cotton Well, the thing is around Ruby's story there is that, like you say, it's in our lifetime and it's actually very recent. And I think that's what's so shocking is.. I think it's easy for us to look back at things and say, well, that was in the past. That was history. Everything's fine now. But it's really not. And, you know, there are people alive who have been through these horrendous experiences. And, you know, they, it wasn't a long time ago. And the reality is, is that still very much affects how, you know, generationally how people are brought up and their sense of the world and sense of justice. But, yeah, I mean, how she managed to go into school every day. I just find it just absolutely inspirational. I don't know where she found the strength to do that.
Candi Williams I know, right?
Frankie Cotton And I wonder in terms of, and I think you sort of alluded to this a bit before, are of the women, would you call them difficult women or sort of complex or flawed women? Because absolutely, to be a leader and to kind of make change requires challenging the status quo. And I wondered, did you sort of discover those, the shadow sides as well as the light sides to sort of, you know, the work that some of the women in the book do?
Candi Williams Yeah, that's an interesting one isn't it. I think that it reminded me a lot of the sheer strength of women of colour. And I've been thinking with a lot, you know, in almost all of their stories, that was a recurring theme, that society wants women, especially women of colour, to shrink themselves, to fit in the mould, to go along with the status quo, essentially. Anot not one of these women did that, like they all achieved amazing things that would go far above the societal expectations or judgements of women of colour at that time. So they were all perceived in many ways as difficult, whereas actually they were amazing. They were leaders. You know, they were change makers. But I think they were all perceived in some way, shape or form as difficult. And I think, you know, the main thing they had in common is not one of them had an easy ride. You know, not one of them had a straight path from A to B. Like none of them had success or, you know, achieving their dreams, you know, written in their stars, they all had all of the odds stacked against them, like even the you know, the kind of more modern day... yeah society perceived them as difficult of what they showed, you know, was absolute leadership. And I think, you know, in many ways, if you look at Serena Williams, they've achieved more than a lot of men have in their lifetime and society in many ways, yeah, has never given them an easy time because of that.
Frankie Cotton Absolutely. And I do think that that's a really important distinction, is the distinction between how someone can be perceived as difficult in society for challenging something and for standing up for something, but also the fact that as humans, we are all flawed. We're all flawed. Even if we do great things, we still have shortcomings and and whatever else. But it's, it's the, it's the perception of this difficult kind of character that is placed on women. And as you say, particularly women of colour. And it's so hard because when you're trying to exist and survive in a system that you ultimately do, do you make the decision as an individual to kind of do what you need to do to take care of yourself. And then also find the strength to do something for the collective, which is then, you know, really challenging that status quo, like you say, you know, having that perception potentially of being difficult.And that's what these iconic women of colour are doing, is that they're going above and beyond for the collective and for the greater good. And that's just incredible.
Candi Williams Yeah, 100 percent.
Frankie Cotton And in January of this year, you published How To Be Perfectly Imperfect. And I wonder why perfectionism as a subject matter?
Candi Williams Good question. I think perfectionism is really, really relevant to now. And I was just thinking actually, when we were just talking about that, I think that there is in many ways, a lot less diversity now. If you think about the women in the book, you've got astronauts, you've got people that were the first pilots, you've got people that had been in the slave trade, etc. And there are undoubtedly lots and lots of women doing a variety of amazing things now. I think that with social media, we almost see this kind of collective where, you know, we have to be careful that we're not just kind of blending into one perfect looking square, square and square highlights reel life where, you know, your life looks like travelling, being a size eight and, you know, talking about nutrition now and then, and that's kind of, that's kind of it. So I think that's why, you know, people talk a lot about amplifying voices. And I think that's important, right, because there's this real culture of comparison. I think at the moment, and that's why imperfectionism is important because I think that we can very easily start to suggest through the social media era that, you live your life one way, and that's perfect. And actually, you know, there's lots of backlash around that now, which is great, because even like, you know, people's highlights reel, that's not the real everyday reality. But we all very easily shown, you know, these perfect homes, and perfect cars and perfect relationships and perfect chapters and perfect weddings and everything, polished and filtered, etc.. And that's just not how life is, is it? Life is full of imperfections. Like, none of us are perfect. And I think perfect is a real subjective myth at best. But I think that we just kind of, you know, over the last decade or so, got into just filtering lives and focussing on likes and not actually acknowledging the fact that, you know, none of us are perfect or ever will be perfect. And, you know, one person's perfect is very different, and that's absolutely fine. So I think that's why the bit was was pretty important.
Frankie Cotton And I wonder, Candi, did you sort of have to go on your own perfectionist journey before or even during writing the book, or is this something that naturally, you know, you've always been been able to discern sort of what's real and not be too much caught up in that trap?
Candi Williams Yeah, if I'm honest, me and my friend talk about this, she is a nutritionist and dietician. She has a really great social media following and she uses it for good. But we have very different, different kind of, I guess, social medias in the sense and I think that I feel personally like I am so, so far away from what the social media society calls perfect. I'm not blonde. I'm not slim. I yeah. I don't have a perfect relationship. I don't have a perfect car. I'm a bit messy, etc.. It's just almost like I suppose I'm so far away from it, that it's laughable in a way to me. Like it's just like I'm never going to be, you know, that's kind of sense of perfect that I just wouldn't even chase it. So I think that I've kind of come to terms with that, naturally with social media. And I just try not to take it too seriously. And I, you know, most of my pictures are unfiltered or when I've had, you know, too many glasses of wine with the girls or whatever. And, you know, it's just it's just my life and it's snapshots into my real life. And that's kind of kind of how I like it. So I think that because I've been on that kind of journey and also because I think a lot of people experience this, like I talk a fair amount about grief and my mum dying on my social media. And I think that, you know, stuff like that just really put in perspective what is important in life. And it is absolutely not how many likes you got on your on your last photo. So I think, yeah, my life has kind of pivoted me away from perfectionism. I think probably 10 years ago. 10, 20 years ago, I probably would have been more, you know, more worried about it than I am now, but yeah, life takes you on a bit of a journey when you start to realise what's important and what's not, I think.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. Sorry to hear about your mum.
Candi Williams Oh, thank you.
Frankie Cotton So I'm interested, Candi, in talking to you about micro aggressions. So you told us the whole block that you had written recently kind of focussed around this topic. And, you know, when we talk about systemic racism and tackling the macro, that also means that we need to tackle the micro and the small daily interactions that we have all the time with friends, colleagues, strangers, supply chains as well in business, which I find that often is overlooked, actually, how we communicate with supply chains and customers. And I wonder if you could tell us just to give us a bit a bit of background for the listeners. How is a microaggression defined? And importantly, how can we spot them?
Candi Williams Yeah, so I guess microaggressions are small interactions that draw to attention people's difference or people's race essentially, there was a comedian that describes them as "death by a thousand cuts" and she gives a really, really good example of walking through to first class on a train, and a woman puts down her newspaper and goes "this is first class, you do know this is first class?" And then she replies brilliantly, she's like, "what is it about me that makes you think that I wouldn't be in first class?" And the woman was really lost for words etc. But it's that kind of thing. It's being treated differently and the way I'm thinking about it. I was thinking, you know, if you wouldn't say it to a white colleague, friend, acquaintance, then it's probably something to reflect on why you're asking or making that comment and so it's, you know, it's a constant, you know, it's been it's been talked about a lot. But, you know, people would describe my hair as, "ooh is like lamb's hair, it's like a sheep's wool" while running their fingers through your hair uninvited. And, you know, that's not really like a normal thing that you do, you just go around doing to people that aren't Black or of colour. And then there's loads. I think more recently, it's the, it's the "all lives matter" and "Black lives matter, but". It's just tiring. Is the word for microaggressions, just tiring, day in and day out, having to kind of hear it, having to deal with it.
Candi Williams I think another one for me was when I was younger, when I was maybe like fifteen, fourteen, fifteen, I worked in a pub just waitressing on the weekends and there was a massive garden. And when I was outside in the summer loads of old women would be like, "oh, you must love this weather, you must absolutely love it." And it was like, why? I was born down the road. You know, it's just that kind of thing. It's just. Yeah, just boring, really. I'm just, you know, boring at best. Exhausting or offensive at worst. And I think it was really heightened recently because ]there was a level of grief, I think, you know, a lot of Black people have been going through recently and, you know, people can say the killings were in America, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but. But the fact is, seeing someone whose life is so so devalued that another human would either shoot them at close range that many times, shoot a mother in their bad or kneel on their neck when they were begging for their life purely because they have the skin colours as you is painful. It is painful. Like, it makes you feel absolutely horrendous that someone would feel so, so lowly about someone of your skin colour, that they would treat another human life like that. And I think when you're dealing with that and I'm going to call it grief, when you're dealing with that grief and it's reflecting all kinds of personal traumas that people have. And then on top of that, you've got people going "but he was a criminal though. But we don't know what she did, though." It's like that is the definition of microaggression. I saw it yesterday, and it was it really made me think it was like stop trying to get black people to debate racism. Like racism isn't up for debate. And I think what I find really interesting is if you, if you take the events in America aside, almost every Black person or person of colour has come through and spoken about their own personal experiences. There is no Black person or person of colour I know that's saying actually, "what's all this about Black Lives Matter?" They are all, everyone's going "you know, racism is absolutely alive and kicking". I'm this age and I've experienced it, you know, right through to children. So I think for people to then think that it is on them to go "well actually, you know, it's not a thing UK side", but it's like people are telling you things are not okay in their country, in their lifetime, in their family, like you shouldn't get to say, "but, you know, but what about this? But you're lucky." etc. Because you haven't lived their experience so the best thing that people can do is listen, learn and try and be an ally. And if they can't do that, then at very best be quiet, because it is tiring to have to hear people debate, basically, are you valued as a human because of your skin colour or not like that shouldn't be something that is up for debate.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, and I can see how, you know, these sort of slights and these comments, how it's so linked to gaslighting. And it's, it's saying that, you know, "I'm not listening to your individual experience" by denying that racism exists what you're saying is, is that "I know you're saying maybe it did in your lifetime, but I don't see it. So it doesn't exist." Right? And it's denying an individual's experience. And that's all a collective is made up of is individuals' experiences. Right?
Candi Williams One hundred percent, and the mention of gaslighting kind of reminded me of how it sometimes comes into play with the dating world. So I have been talking to numerous guys before or over the years on dating apps. And then I have politely said, "actually do you know what, I don't think we're compatible" or like, "I'd rather we probably parked it here and stopped talking" in a polite, fair way, and then received torrents of abuse about my skin colour, being called a "black whatnot" and just like horrendous, horrendous things. You know, it always comes into play there, and, you know, let's be very clear. It is racism. You know, if you think it was you know, it's not funny, but it's almost laughable that people go, "OK, well, you know, but they were arguing and then they said this" but like the fact that that is even in your vocabulary, like, is so, so wrong, you know. So there's so, so many different ways that it comes into play. And I think that's a really important distinction for people to make. Racism is not just shooting someone who's the colour of their skin. It's not just calling someone an N-word. You know, it's it is in many different, you know, a multitude of different facets that it comes into play and they are all equally as unacceptable and painful.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And I think that the thing is as well. And it must be difficult. And I, and I can only obviously speak from my experience as a white woman. But I know that I've internalised misogyny based on, you know, microaggressions and not even noticing, right? So yesterday I had a revelation when I witnessed a man shake hands with a woman in an office environment, and actually thinking about that right now because of Coronavirus that was a big mistake and I don't know why they did that! So that's a whole nother level! But I saw that happen. And for the first time in like a decade of my career in the corporate world, I realised, I just had this revelation where I thought, "why do men never shake hands with women?" Why is it always complicated for a man to walk into a professional environment and to greet a woman in the same way they do men?" And I was like, hang on a minute, I know this, I've seen it for 10 years. Why has it taken me so long for the penny to drop? And that's I think the tough part as well is because it's not so overt, it becomes really hard to not just assume that these things are normal or acceptable and you just kind of take them on. And actually, you don't always see the subtlety of the message, you know, either verbally or physically or whatever, that exists in that in that environment. I don't really know what my question is!
Candi Williams No, no, honestly, 100 percent! I think that's it, isn't it? It's a subtlety. But I read something really good the other day and it was about how the intent doesn't take away the impact. So I have no doubt that's a number of microaggressions come from a place of innocence and not understanding. But, you know, the intent doesn't make them any less tiring, painful, hurtful, etc.. So, you know, I guess that's on the education piece, where people need to learn and be aware, because you can have, you know, a completely innocent... you might just want to feel the texture of my hair desperately but, you know, that doesn't make it okay, really to be grabbing people's hair or any part of their body or being.
Frankie Cotton Even if you're doing it in a nice way, it's still not acceptable! So I wonder then and I know that reacting to microaggressions or identifying them or pointing them out, can also be a double bind because, you know, you can be potentially, obviously, depending on who you're speaking with, but could be labelled sensitive or reactive or again, you know, that gaslighting almost making it up. But I wonder are there, sort of, strategies that we can employ to really kind of deal with these, and I am specifically talking about in the workplace that we can actually really be conscious and proactive about the way that we stop these kinds of communications happening.
Candi Williams Yeah. I'm really glad as well because a lot of people have written about this recently, and I think it's a really important topic because I, I agree that a lot of people don't necessarily know what to say. And the last thing you want to do is to get into a confrontation. And I know I hear that. I have battled with myself internally, probably a million times over whether to call out certain things or not, because do I just want to deal with the confrontational aspect? People get so... If only people were as defensive about being racist, as they were, you know, being called or potentially labelled a racist. But how to deal with them? I think there's a couple of things. I think if people make jokes or say things in a jokey way, then I think asking for clarity on what they meant by that is a really important way, and asking them to kind of clarify and talk through it a little bit more, to kind of understand and then, you know, and then it kind of puts you in a good stead to do another thing, which I think is always is always a good one, is just to say, you know, "I don't feel comfortable with that for these reasons". And I think, you know, really putting it on yourself and being like "I don't feel comfortable with that" so they don't feel attacked. But, you know, "I don't feel comfortable with that because", you know, or "I would prefer that you didn't touch my hair" or "I don't feel comfortable with that because I think, you know, it speaks about people of colour in a way that makes me feel uncomfortable" etc.. "Or I would prefer that you didn't say that around me" etc.. And I think, you know, if people come back and they are very defensive around that, then in a way, you know, it kind of shows who they are more than it does you. I think we need to have boundaries around what we feel comfortable with. And I've been trying to get better at this myself in actually saying, "no, that's not okay". Like, "I'm not going to argue with you about this and I'm not going to get into a debate about this. But my boundary is here and this isn't okay. So how you're speaking to me now, I don't feel okay with for these reasons" I'm trying to do that in a number of ways in my life, because I think we as women especially, go through so many instances where people will touch us inappropriately, people will say things to us inappropriately. You know, people will treat us in a way that doesn't make us feel comfortable. And I keep thinking about by continuing to accept this because we don't want to be perceived as sensitive, overly emotional, we are perpetuating the fact that it is absolutely not okay for people to behave in ways that you don't feel comfortable with. So I, it's a learning for me, but I have to do it a few times recently where I've just has to say, you know, that makes me feel really uncomfortable, actually. And like, I know I'm not okay with that. And you know, it it's worked out well in a number of situations.
Candi Williams But I think, I really need people to know, you know, if you look at how things affect us. So, you know, things can be really triggering for people's personal traumas etc. So I think having those boundaries of what is okay and what's not okay and becoming better at saying actually no, that doesn't sit, that doesn't sit well with me. I saw a guy the other day, it was so weird because I had literally just gone to get some bread and go to the post office. And I was walking back to my flat and I passed a guy on the way and then he started shouting, "Hello, hello, hello." And I just ignored because I was like, you know, I'm on my way, hopefully, he'll go away. Classic. Classic me! And he didn't, and then he came right up to me and then tapped me on the shoulder and said, I know Coronavirus, right, and then was like, "can I talk to you for a while?" And I was just like, no, no thank you, and he looked really taken aback, like he didn't know what to do. And I thought to myself five years ago, I probably would have entertained a really uncomfortable situation where I would have probably tried to give him a fake number or something. And I was just like, you know what, like, no, I don't want to talk to you because I don't want to talk to you. I don't have to explain why I don't want to talk to you. I don't have to pretend I'm married or whatever. I just don't want to talk to you. And that's it. And I think we've been put in so many situations where it is hard, I think, for us to say no, and there's a lot of fear there, but I think it's something that I'm working on. I think it comes down to microaggressions. It makes you feel uncomfortable, vocalising that so people at least know, and you've made your boundaries very clear and then they need to kind of take action.
Frankie Cotton Yeah, that's so interesting. And I can see the parallels with the other story you were telling about, you know, the guy being abusive on dating apps and things like that. Is it sort of that you're fine and, you know, you're welcome, and as long as you're within these tramlines that I've set of how I want you to behave. And I feel like as a woman at work, I get that sense, you know, so long as you stick to the, yeah, these sort of boundaries that we have for you and who we want you to be in this environment, then that's fine. But as soon as you cross those, then we've got issues or then I'll be like, hang on a minute. But you're not. And I and I sense that that's sort of similar to what you're saying here, is that, you know, when you're behaving and people pleasing in a way that people expect you to, then that sort of surviving and getting through is fine. But actually, when you cross those and you say, no, I've, I've had enough, this is unacceptable to me, then that can sometimes incite that sort of actually shock often with men. "What do you mean you're not going to talk to me? You're a woman. You should talk to me." No, no, thank you. Not today. But it's, I guess it's, I don't know, there's so many elements to it and there's so many sort of intersecting societal and cultural issues. But I guess it's finding a power within yourself somehow. Right. Finding something to to speak your truth.
Candi Williams Yeah. And it's really hard because I think that, you know, we are all, or I would hope we are all aware of the black women stereotype, which is an absolute stereotype, you know. And that's really hard because I'm completely aware that by me vocalising that I'm not comfortable with something I, you know, am likely being perceived as being an angry black woman. And I think I know myself. And actually my go to emotion is sadness. And I'm much more likely to cry than I am to shout. But I think the fact that, you know, if you're not a black woman who is getting your head down and being submissive, if, goodness forbid, you say acutally, you know, your harassment or verbal abuse to me makes me feel really, really uncomfortable. Then you are likely to be perceived as the angry black woman. I think, you know, that comes up in the workplace a lot. You know, I think, you know, I've heard people in my career that are men talk in ways that are abhorrent and get away with it. And it is absolutely fine. But goodness forbid a woman cries or speaks up and says that someone's behaviour isn't okay or, you know, kind of speaks out of, out of turn. And I think that's something we really need to look into.
Frankie Cotton Yeah. And because the power dynamic there as well in the workplace always adds another layer of complexity to those. So, Candi, thank you so generously telling us your personal stories and sharing your experiences with us. As we wrap up, I'd like to come full circle where we started, really, because I know you have another book coming out in 2020. So sounds super exciting. Can you tell us what it is and how we can stay connected with you and keep an eye out for this book?
Candi Williams Yeah, of course. So Iconic Women in Sport follows a similar format to Iconic Women of Colour and just covers off some amazing women in the sporting world. So a huge diversity of sports, football, surfing, hockey, volleyball, go-karting, swimming, running, etc.. And just shares their inconic stories essentially. It has been slightly slower to be released because of Coronavirus and books and everything, you know, related to that. But we're hoping to get the e-book version out very soon. I think I will release updates on my Twitter. So I'm @candiwrites. Yeah, so I'll shout about it on social media, that's for sure!
Frankie Cotton Amazing. I can't wait to read this book. I think it's going to be awesome. And just one question or really just, I'm just going to give you some space, if you like. Is there anything that we've not covered today that you would like to pass on to the listeners?
Candi Williams I think we've covered loads, but I think the one thing I've been thinking recently is, you know, we're seeing some really big bold events and awful, tragic, horrific events happening. But the very nature of race and being systemic means that it appears, it is woven into the fabric of our everyday lives, our industries, our workplaces, etc.. So I guess the you know, the stress test is to, for us all to look around our workplaces, our communities, our industries and asking, you know, are we doing enough? Have we done enough in terms of anti-racism? And if we can answer that, yes, then great. If we can answer that, no, being honest, then what more can we all do?
Frankie Cotton Great. Thank you so much. Honestly, Candi, that was wonderful. And I can't thank you enough for sharing.
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